See All Topics

Home / Section: Comic strips

Creators fights tax status in Los Angeles, again

Creators Syndicate has filed a lawsuit against the city of Los Angeles after the city reset the syndicate’s tax classification. At issue is whether Creators is an “occupations and professions” or a “wholesale and retail” business with the former being taxed at a much higher level. The syndicate and the city fought this battle 15 years earlier and Creators won the right to be considered a wholesale and retail business. According to Creators president and founder Rick Newcombe, Los Angeles reset their status in 2007 and demanded payment of taxes at the higher rate with interest and penalties back to 2004.

Everything was fine until the city started running out of money in 2007. Suddenly, the city announced that it was going to ignore its own ruling and reclassify us in the higher tax category. Even more incredible is the fact that the new classification was to be imposed retroactively to 2004 with interest and penalties. No explanation was given for the new classification, or for the city’s decision to ignore its 1994 ruling.

Their official position is that the city is not bound by past rulings — only taxpayers are. This is why we have been forced to file a lawsuit. We will let the courts decide whether it is legal for adverse rulings to apply only to taxpayers and not to the city.

Newcombe also mentions that the company is preparing to move out of Los Angeles should court ruling be unfavorable to their business.

Community Comments

#1 Tom Heintjes
July/13/2009
@ 9:25 am

Best of luck to Rick and Creators. Frankly, California overall sounds like an awful place to be these days, from a purely economic point of view.

#2 Phil Wohlrab
July/13/2009
@ 9:59 am

Nice to see this kind of thing finally hitting home. Maybe people will start waking up. Jersey is in the same boat, only when our state government runs out of money it just doubles people property taxes, taxing them out of their homes. They can’t do that in Cali. from what I’ve read.

#3 Phil Tography
July/13/2009
@ 10:13 am

Creators is doing what we all wish we could, getting out of the out of control taxing monster states. Best of Luck with your battles and future.

#4 Paul Jon
July/13/2009
@ 11:01 am

Looks like L.A. finally found someone to pay for the Michael Jackson memorial service.

#5 Randal Milholland
July/13/2009
@ 12:59 pm

“Their official position is that the city is not bound by past rulings â?? only taxpayers are.”

The sheer arrogance of this statement is overwhelming.

#6 Shane Davis
July/13/2009
@ 1:01 pm

Hate to get political, but welcome to Obama’s America. Look at the worst states in America economically (New Jersey, New York, California, etc.) and what do you see?

Blue States.

When liberal Dems get total control, they will destroy the economy every time.

Why? They believe continually increasing the taxes of businesses and individuals (the very source of wealth creation and generators of a sound economy) is the ONLY way to govern because it represents total control over people lives. No to mention the fact they rely on bribing those dependant on the government entitlements so they’ll keep voting Democrat. Robin Hood keeps getting himself elected, in other words.

Now look at the states that are weathering this economic crisis much better, even prospering.
Texas, Florida, Utah Oklahoma are great examples.

And they are Red States.

If you like what California (and LA by extension) are doing economically to businesses and individuals, then buckle your seatbelt, because the EXACT same policies that wrecked California and turned it into a depraved, socialist sewer of moral and economic bankruptcy are exactly what those moonbat Democrats have in store for us at the national level.

Creators should move to Texas.

And Rick Perry was right – Texas should secede. There is no way we could ever be worse off.

#7 brian anderson
July/13/2009
@ 7:35 pm

Heck, I’d move and meet Shane, Rick and the gang in Texas. They just tucked away 9 billion dollars and are going to cut taxes again.

Mass? Meh, not so much.

#8 Jeff Mahon
July/13/2009
@ 9:27 pm

Good Grief.

I have many wonderful friends in California and love what the state used to represent, and used to live there, but you couldn’t pay me to live there now.

What a despotic state. Out of control spending, with no checks and balances, enforced by tyrannical collection tactics.

I wonder if California citizens could get away with imposing levies on the state government and it’s employees along with charging outrageous penalties and interest, and even kicking in some doors for all of the IOU’s the state is sending out instead of tax refunds. I wonder if we could send IOU’s and get away with it.

If I were Mr. Newcombe, relocation would be in order. Lots of business friendly state still exist. Florida, Nevada, Texas.

I seriously doubt California can be saved at this point. I wonder how this is going to affect the artist Creators represent.

#9 Dave Stephens
July/14/2009
@ 2:17 am

Watch out, Texas – if this Cap and Trade bill passes, you can bet that Waxman will leave a Markey! LOL
I’m sure oil rich states will suffer the most job losses from it, in fact, preparations are built in to the bill to pay for all the energy sector workers who will be out of work… Ouch.

#10 Mike Peterson
July/14/2009
@ 3:56 am

Oh, yeah, California, land of the liberals! Between the stupid, short-sighted property tax revolt that crippled the state budget a couple of decades ago, the raging homophobia of last fall’s none-of-your-bizness ballot initiative and a well-established taste for electing conservative Hollywood stiffs to fill positions that are supposed to require skill and experience, I can’t think of a better example of liberalism run amuck.

#11 Wiley Miller
July/14/2009
@ 8:11 am

“And Rick Perry was right – Texas should secede. There is no way we could ever be worse off.”

Seriously? Do you really believe that?

#12 Henry Clausner
July/14/2009
@ 8:57 am

The Press voted for Obama and he made it in,I have one question: how’s the stimulus working for everyone? And where is all the stimulus money anyway? (went to Acorn?)
Anyway, I wish Creators Syndicate alot of luck. Theres nowhere to go….

#13 Steve Skelton
July/14/2009
@ 9:46 am

Yeah, Henry, We’d be far better off with four more years of the Bush Cheney agenda. Your memory must be faulty, as you are forgetting all about the Bush Stimulus and a bunch of cash that has subsequently disappeared. Bush started his own stimulus relief way before he left office, and need I remind you that he also left over a 10 trillion dollar national deficit and a war in Iraq that has cost this country $686,764,475,048 and counting.

And stop blaming the financial problems of a state on the federal government. It makes no sense.

#14 Steve Greenberg
July/14/2009
@ 11:20 am

Uh, Mike P: those “liberal” examples you cite were all pushed forward by the more conservative elements of the California electorate. Liberalism had nothing to do with those examples — quite the opposite.

#15 Wiley Miller
July/14/2009
@ 11:47 am

He said that tongue-in-cheek, Steve. His point was that they were all passed by conservatives. And California has had only one Democrat as Governor in over 20 years.

#16 Shane Davis
July/14/2009
@ 1:02 pm

“Seriously? Do you really believe that?”

Are you serious? What do you think is at stake here?

We have a totalitarian dictator that is intentionally sinking our economy and shredding our Constitution in order to ‘reinvent’ America. Is that serious enough for you?

You’re a fool if you think Obama and the Dems wants recovery and individual freedom â?? they want power and control.

Their goal is extreme dependence on the federal government by the vast majority of the population to ensure iron fist control. That is not a right wing fantasy â?? you are losing your sovereign nation right out from under your feet.

The 20th Century is riddled with examples of smooth talking tyrants that came to power not by force but by riding the crest of economic calamity â?? just like Obama did. He is intentionally causing more unemployment, more unrest, more anxiety and more fear than any other President ever did because it serves his purpose â?? power and control. The sad thing is so many Americans donâ??t care because free health care, a cool car and HD televisions are more important to them than true freedom. Not in Texas. Not entirely, yet anyway.

Liberty, not ‘lifestyle’ is the most precious element of American citizenship. But millions are willing to throw that away and wreck the American Constitution for a non existent â??rightâ?? to health care or to ‘save the environmentâ?? from mythical global warming â?? how profoundly sad. Reminds me of the Germans who sang Hitlerâ??s praises for bringing back jobs or the Italians who celebrated Mussolini for making the trains run on time â?? they and their children paid dearly in the end for that selfishness and short sidedness, and Americans will too.

Wiley, you may roll your eyes and scoff at the force of energy behind my rants on true liberty (which includes irrevocable personal risk) but that freedom is still important enough to millions of us that weâ??d separate from the U.S. to preserve it if forced to – even fight to the death for it if need be. Does that make us radical right wing nuts? Not any more than it does Jefferson, Adams, Madison or Bowie, Travis, Crockett, Houston, or Austin.

Itâ??s a shame that so many who reside now in what was the original 13 colonies can so casually throw away their history and heritage of fighting for liberty. But I guarantee you that in the South (particularly Texas) millions still believe in personal accountability and rugged individualism. Weâ??re not a whipped mass of bleating sheep eating up the vomitous lies of a Chicago street thug the media elected as a false god.

And if those blue states have it so right, why are hundreds of thousands of Californians, Oregonians, Washingtonians, Ohioans, Michiganites and so forth flooding into Texas, Oklahoma, Georgia & Florida? Thereâ??s the true evidence of Democrat policies.

California blue state liberals have had unencumbered control long enough to institutionalize their world view and they have tragically destroyed a once great state. Sensible folks are getting out ASAP. And again guess where they are going? It ainâ??t New Jersey or Michigan.

And even with Texas being the #1 economy in the USA (which it is), I’d rather give that up to live very sparsely in a free Constitutional Republic of Texas as opposed to being a submissive, obsequious @$$ kissing peasant in Massachusetts, New York or California.

I said we couldnâ??t be worse off. We wouldnâ??t. Because we would still be free. And eventually the population of this nation will be slaves to an unstoppable, overwhelming federal government that dictates every aspect of our lives – and weâ??ll have handed that power over to them in exchange for bread crusts and band aids. How pathetic.

Again, you ask if Iâ??m serious. Well let me ask you a question – are you willing to trade your liberty for a â??lifestyle,â?? a â??greenâ?? environment and total government control over all your necessities of life?

Are you serious?

#17 Abell Smith
July/14/2009
@ 2:01 pm

Priceless

#18 Tom Wood
July/14/2009
@ 2:14 pm

Shane…

I’ve worked for the government. They aren’t that well organized. They mostly live in fear of the next bombshell they didn’t expect.

#19 Wiley Miller
July/14/2009
@ 2:26 pm

Actually, Shane, I was simply asking in regard to the economic ramifications of Texas (or any other state) secedes in what they would have to take over that the federal government takes care of. For instance, Texas would have to come up with their own postal service and defense department. All the U.S. government agencies, such as NASA, would have to pull out, as would all the companies doing contract work with the defense department, as well as the closure of the military bases. You’re talking about massive unemployment with just those few items, and there’s so much more. What happens when you get hit with another hurricane? No more FEMA. And now you have to guard the borders around the entire state, not just along the Mexican border. And you think Texas can hold off Mexico if they decide to invade and take it back now that you won’t have the U.S. military to protect you?

Session is just a hot button politicians will use to rile up an extremist base for their own benefit.

#20 Tom Heintjes
July/14/2009
@ 2:55 pm

Shane–

Not sure where you’re getting your data from regarding migration patterns. According to this:
http://www.floridarealtors.org/NewsAndEvents/n3-010809.cfm
Florida is considered balanced in terms of in-migration and out-migration. Several of the states with highest in-migration rates went for Obama, FWIW.

#21 Phil Wohlrab
July/14/2009
@ 3:18 pm

NJ, right now is the state to flee. Ultimately the rich will leave with a top income tax rate of 10%, and the middle class will be crushed.. either than or they’ll move out too. Many of our state workers live in PA to avoid the taxes, where there is a flat tax of 3.7.

The government has become the biggest welfare recipient of them all, with their retiring age at 55 and their salary for life.. it’s killing the private sector. With an unemployment rate of 9.4… our Government’s unemployment rate is ZERO.

They refuse to consolidate departments or lay off anyone, and instead raise taxes on commodities.. we have the highest sales and property taxes in the nation, and though they hike taxes on something new every year it’s never enough.

People start talking secession more out of frustration than a real desire to separate themselves from the US, and no where is the frustration more real than in Jersey where their really is taxation without any representation.. even the republicans in this state are big gov’t types.

#22 Phil Wohlrab
July/14/2009
@ 3:19 pm

*there

#23 Wiley Miller
July/14/2009
@ 3:44 pm

“People start talking secession more out of frustration than a real desire to separate themselves from the US…”

The difference here is that the governor of Texas is advocating session. What advocates of this, such as Shane, is that they haven’t taken into account who would have to pick up the tab for their new independent country on defense alone. You think you’re being taxed now? Go ahead an secede.

By the way, Shane, in your screed where you refer to President Obama as a “totalitarian dictator”, comparing him with the likes of Hitler and Mussolini, and believing that the federal government is taking individual rights away, so we need to fight for them, are you advocating an overthrow of the federal government and/or the assassination of the president you believe is a monstrous dictator?

#24 Shane Davis
July/14/2009
@ 5:32 pm

Wiley,
You seem to base your theory that Texas would collapse on the notion that without the Federal Government it could not survive, whether that takes the form of federal funds, military support, whatever.

Texas is larger that France and larger than Germany and has an economy that is more robust than both. Are you going to suggest that France and Germany would collapse and be overrun by Muslims if the European Union wasn’t around to provide for them?

The truth is Texas would likely make claims to everything within it’s territorial boundaries upon seccession. That means NASA, Ft. Hood, Pantex Nuclear Assembly Plant, all of it. The only thing that would stop that would be if an American president sent military troops in to fire upon Texans and take those assets back by force.

Obama doesn’t have the stones to even stand up to tyrants like Hugo Chavez – I doubt seriously he would get into a shooting war with recent American citizens.

And as far as the economy, we would most likely follow the Irish model. Everyone is aware of the historical state of poverty Ireland traditionally suffered. Until they created the ‘Emerald Miracle’ of slashing federal spending by almost half, implementing a 12.5% corporate flat tax, cut the top individual tax rate from 65% to almost 40% and cut the capital gains rate in half from 40% to 20%.

Very very Red State of them. And it created a turn around the likes of which Europe hadn’t seen in decades. In fact it spurred at least 13 other nations in Europe and Asia to follow suit, including 13 Russia. Hell, if the Ruskies can get with Red State conservative policies, I’m sure Texas will, too.

I could see a flood of companies that fled America due to confiscatory taxation coming back…to Texas. Being adjacent to America provides for a great work force pool, already developed educational instutions and the proximity makes logistics to the American markets much easier, not to mention the development of South American markets.

And plenty of nations would be willing to aid and assist Texas for the same reasons France aided American Revolutionaries. It was good business and it kept an enemy busy. I could see countries as varied as Saudi Arabi, Australia, Japan, Ireland, Israel and a host of Eastern European nations coming to aid based upon the massive markets Texas represents, not to mention the agricultural, textile and energy exports it has to offer. It would be good business to support us.

And as far as Mexico attacking? it is clear you don’t understand the Texas history at all. That tasty bit of galactic stupidity would be the worst mistake any Mexican president could ever make.

According to the Texas State Rifle Association the best estimate is 17 million Texas multiplied by 3 weapons apiece. And the ammo to go with it. And Mexico? Not exactly known for it’s military prowess. It can’t even control a couple of hundred drug runners on it’s borders.

Besides, just as it happened in 1836, thousands from Tennessee, Mississippi, Louisiana, Missouri, Oklahoma, Georgia would come to fight to preserve liberty. The South understands what it means when a totalitarian force steps foot on it’s soil. That is a fight Mexico would regret for 10,000 years – I guarantee you.

In the end, Texas would probably wind up owning the Mexican oil reserves and making it quite profitable. In fact, since we would no longer be held back by a fanatical anti-capitalist, left wing EPA that refuses to allow new oil drilling in the Gulf of Mexico or new refineries to be built, we’d be raring to go!

And Texans know a bit about the oil industry – without EPA interference in the development of new sources and production we would scream past America in 7 – 10 years in energy production.

Additionally, I don’t believe America would pull all of it’s contractors out either – it couldn’t. There reason so many are down here to begin with is because this is where the work get’s done. Are you going to outsource it all to Delaware and New Hampshire?

The United States absolutely DEPENDS on Texas to hold up the sagging US economy. It is in large part Texas tax dollars that allows D.C. to waste so much on federal give away programs and bailouts bribing helpless Northeastern and West Coast sheep for their votes.

What would be more catastrophic for the US economy? Texas leaving or most of the entire midwest or half of the North East leaving? Texas, of course.

I know the Lone Star State is only one part of the American economic system, but it is the strongest and most resilient part. If any land and people can stand alone and make it work, it is Texas. Never doubt that. Our culture and entire world view is based upon independence and aggressive pursuit of personal liberty.

Whatever fool tried to attack that or diminish it would see an uprising the likes of which hasn’t happened in over 140 years. Why do you think ACORN and LULAC are trying so hard to get millions to vote 15 times each in Texas? Why are they trying to defeat border fences so desperately? Why are they trying to defeat repealing of the ‘Anchor Baby’ laws? Why do they oppose deporting illegals so virulently?

It is because the only way to ensure Texas’ subjegation is to defeat it from within by fraud and Grand Theft Democracy. This is the one place the screams in defiance of liberal, socialist policies and proves they don’t work. Texas is a threat to the Obamas of the world.

As far as the “overthrow of the federal government and/or the assassination of the president” let me ask you this:

Should someone have shot Hitler BEFORE his bloodlusting racism caused the biggest war in human history and exterminated over 6 million Jews?

Well since I can’t see the future and therefore I can’t advocate his removal by force or termination. It seems it was the left that was engaging in ‘kill the President’ talk when Bush was in office, making jokes on late night TV with “Snipers Wanted” subtitles and movies about his being shot. I never have heard one Republican call for Obama’s killing. Hate like that comes from the left.

That is why I said if Texas has to, it should seceed to preserve freedom from a tyrant. I didn’t say blow his head off. You brought that up.

But I will say that in the decades ahead, historians will look at his presidency and note quite correctly that while elements of American decline were in place before his ‘ascension’ to the presidency, his was the one administration that strangled American freedom and drowned it in Marxism and mainstreamed American totalitarianism through socialist control.

Truthfully, if he gets his entire agenda shoved through, it will ultimately mean that the one and half million men and women that have died for this country since 1776 will have died for nothing.

Their deaths will have been in vain because everything noble America stands for and has fought for on principle will have been shuttered because of this radical Marxist will have undone all their hard, painful work and sacrifice. Because I believe he at his core represents the very opposite of everything America stands for and that he in his heart and soul despises this nation, despises capitalism, despises individual freedom and despises the spiritual basis of the foundation and subsequent laws of this country.

And instead of standing around getting burned to the ground with Wisconsin, Illinois, Ohio and the rest, the risk to go it alone seems a much better choice.

The fact is sure, Texas would have a hell of a lot of problems if we seceeded. True. But we would make it work, just as a rag tag band of rebels made it work and defeated one of the largest military forces in the world in 1776.

And as I said before, no matter how rough it would be, WE WOULD BE FREE. In the end, how much is that worth to you?

It is everything to Texans.

PS – BTW, I liked your use of the word screed – haven’t heard it in awhile. I wrote it down on a Post-It note next to your name, just so I would remember it.

#25 Shane Davis
July/14/2009
@ 5:47 pm

“Shaneâ?¦

Iâ??ve worked for the government. They arenâ??t that well organized. They mostly live in fear of the next bombshell they didnâ??t expect.”

Tom, you’re absolutely right, except I think it is worse. They do know what bombshells are coming – they just care more about the one thing that gives their pathetic existence meaning – the next gig, getting re-elected, moving up the ladder.

I know Bush I knew pulling out of Iraq without taking Baghdad was a huge mistake. He did it anyway because we was a coward and didn’t want to upset the UN.

Clinton knew giving nuclear secrets to China and paying terrorists to not attack us would blow up on us eventually. China would see us a weak and become our military equal AND more aggressive. And the terrorists would plan greater attacks in the face of his waffling. But he’d be out of office before those weeds bloomed so he didn’t care.

I have worked for a city, county, state and the federal govt. I have seen up close and personal that these people are the worst leeches in society. They know nothing about the industries, businesses, economies, educational systems or families they seek to so arrogantly and self righteously control, but they think they are entitled because they are “THEM” the great political class.

This is why in their elitism they see no problem stealing millions, living the high life off of taxpayers and lying with every breath.

The ends justify the means. And the end is their re-election and usurpation of wealth and power, and the means is lying, dividing, fear mongering and deception.

It is any wonder more bombshells don’t go off and that this nation gets anything done at all.

#26 Shane Davis
July/14/2009
@ 5:48 pm

That is suppossed to read: “I know Bush 1 (as in ‘one’) knew pulling out of Iraq without taking Baghdad was a huge mistake.”

#27 Mike Peterson
July/14/2009
@ 8:10 pm

HOUSTON — The 30-day standoff continued today outside the NASA complex, as Texas National Guard troops continued to blockade the exits, preventing scientists and researchers from leaving the complex.

“Even if we wanted to stay, there’s nothing for us to do!” one physicist said, in a cell phone conversation after landlines were cut. “As soon as Perry took over the state, Washington changed all the radio frequencies. We don’t have any rockets, the shuttles are all in Florida and we can’t even listen to anything, much less make anything happen.”

Texas President Perry continued to insist, however, that, while it does not take a rocket scientist to run the government, he needs them for something else. He did not elaborate.

Meanwhile, reports out of San Antonio continue to indicate no sign of aircraft at Lackland Air Force Base. A spokesman for President Perry says the aircraft simply disappeared a few hours after the President declared them the property of the new Republic of Texas.

“We’re not sure what happened,” the spokesman said. “There were a whole lot of them, and then it was like they just vanished into thin air.”

Defense Secretary Bush said he intended to personally launch a search, using aircraft from the Texas Air National Guard.

“Mission accomplished,” he said, “except for the part where we round’em up and bring’em back!”

Perry has ordered a thousand more Minutemen dispatched to the border with Arkansas to keep Arkansans from attempting to cross illegally into Texas. “We haven’t seen them yet, but we know they’re fixing to come in here,” Perry said, “on account of they want the jobs now being abandoned by those who are illegally crossing from Texas into Mexico.”

#28 Carl Moore
July/14/2009
@ 9:45 pm

Shane,

Your characterization of Obama as a “tyrant” is off the mark. What I fear he is, is much worse – he’s a bureaucrat. If he wants money redistributed in the name of “fairness,” he creates a bureaucracy. If something is not working the way he thinks it should, he passes a regulation. If he needs someone to carry out his bureaucratic will, he appoints a czar.

All of these things gum up the works. And as the government metastasizes – not only at the federal level, but at the state and local levels – the goop gets thicker, gooier, heavier and more and more destructive.

The long-term damage he is causing is monumental and will take generations to undo.

#29 Shane Davis
July/14/2009
@ 10:00 pm

Carl,
Either way, if I’m right or you’re right, he’s the worst president in 150 years.

His solutions run counter to everything this nation ever stood for. The sad thing is, it won’t matter to the kids of today because they are their children are going to be saddled with greatly diminished liberties and trillions upon trillions in debt.

Do you think they’ll really care if he was a tyrant or a imbecilic elitist boob? Will it matter?

Mike,
Love it. Hilarious! The only scary part is…Rick Perry as a president! He may have uttered the phrase that made everyone else aware Texans think of breaking away, but that thought has been around longer than his saying it. He just tried to appropriate it.

My rant only spoke to Texas being independant – NOT to Perry being the guy who would do it – Heaven forbid it be him.

In fact, his saying what he did was exactly what Wiley accused him of – pandering. Most true Texans don’t think a whole lot him, as his poll numbers indicate, and we’re fighting to get blue blood country club types like him out of the GOP, just like they are trying to do on the national level.

Perry is the protege of Bush, who despite his mumbled ramblings and sad attmepts at sounding folksy, is a Connecticut-born Rockerfeller Republican who is about as much of a conservative as Lindsey Graham. And he is Perry’s mentor. Sheeeesh. If Bush was the worst thing to ever happen to the GOP, Perry isn’t far behind.

The dude didn’t even play football at Texas A&M – he was a cheerleader! That says it all!

Politics aside, though, your caricature was hilarious.

#30 Daryl Cagle
July/15/2009
@ 1:31 am

This is a local, city business tax issue. Creators can move a couple of miles away, outside the LA city limits to a more tax friendly, close-by, better-run, smaller, neighboring city, like El Segundo or Culver City, to avoid future LA city taxes – both attract businesses that flee Los Angeles taxes and regulations. I wouldn’t expect Creators to move to another state.

#31 Wiley Miller
July/15/2009
@ 6:02 am

Your last post begs a couple of questions, Shane.

First, since you consider Obama to be “the worst president in 150 years” after just 6 months in office, what could he do now and for the rest of his term to turn your opinion around that would make him the best president in 150 years and get your vote for a second term?

Second, since most true Texans don’t like the governor, and I’m assuming here that most Texans consider themselves to be “true Texans”, like you, then how the heck did he get elected?

Anyway, back to the topic of this thread, I agree with Daryl. I always wondered why Creators located itself in L.A. (other than that’s where Rick Newcombe was living when he started it up), as it’s always been an expensive place to be. There’s no real reason a syndicate needs to there. Universal had it right from the beginning, locating themselves in the center of the country.

#32 Mike Lester
July/15/2009
@ 8:26 am

Forget social issues: abortion, gun rights, wearing milk cartons for shoes -none of that matters anymore. It’s the economy, stupid and “it’s worse than you think”. That BHO has been in office only six months is EXACTLY what should make you irrigate your pants.

From yesterday’s WSJ: (Mr. Zuckerman is chairman and editor in chief of U.S. News & World Report.)

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124753066246235811.html#mod=djemEditorialPage

#33 Wiley Miller
July/15/2009
@ 8:43 am

See my question to Shane regardin Obama, Mike. Maybe you can answer it.

#34 Mike Lester
July/15/2009
@ 10:22 am

First, I still have job (for the moment) so reading posts of Epistolic length is not only not an option but tiresome. But I’ll try to respond to your Wiley’s question @ post 23:

BHO is a colonialist. He’s Mao. He’s Huey P. Long w/ a tan. He’s William Hung w/ a better voice but same chops. He’s the biggest affirmative action hire in history.

He’s single handedly razed journalism as we knew it. He’s overmatched domestically and abroad, unqualified (see resume’) and an arrogant ignoramus (but he’s been to “all 57 states” -or did that dumbass Bush say that?).

He’s also my President and as such has my unqualified support, scathing criticism and protection at all cost. He’s also an employee as is the whole of Washington and should be held in account for following the Constitution to the f*cking letter (see Oath of Office) He’s not.

He’s also the first President in recent memory who can’t throw a baseball 60′ 6 “. That alone is impeachable.

#35 Tom Wood
July/15/2009
@ 10:30 am

We’ve been pumping up the economy with inflated real estate values for at least a decade. The bill came due, and we all act surprised. No house equity to borrow against means lower spending which means less production and fewer jobs required to produce for the lower level of demand.

At the same time, many types of jobs are moving to places like China and India because they can be done there at lower cost. It really is a global economy and there’s not much anyone can do to change that.

Together, these events cause unemployment to rise, consumer spending to stall, and production to falter, continuing the recession. Duh.

Economically, it doesn’t matter which political party is ‘in charge’ because they’re riding the tiger like everyone else. So you might as well focus on pointless culture war issues and demonize ‘them’. At least you can pretend you’re righteous.

#36 Alan Gardner
July/15/2009
@ 10:33 am

I’m always amazed at how quickly a thread can go veering off topic – this one from nearly the beginning.

We all have the right to our political opinions no matter how they might differ from others. As long as the tone remains respectful and doesn’t start getting personal, the thread will stay open.

Thanks.
Alan

#37 Jesse Cline
July/15/2009
@ 10:56 am

Amen, Tom.

#38 Kelly McNutt
July/15/2009
@ 11:24 am

“Heâ??s also the first President in recent memory who canâ??t throw a baseball 60â?² 6 â??. That alone is impeachable.”

My jaw dropped when I saw that pitch. What was the point of all those shirtless buff-man pictures if he can’t even throw a ball better than my 5-year old? Heh…

The thing that drives me nuts about decisions like the one L.A. made regarding the tax status of Creators is how arbitrary it seems. You’re taxed one way until suddenly you’re not, and then to go retroactive back to 2004? Why that year? Why stop there and not go all the way back to 1994 when the original ruling was made? Or why not just to the beginning of this year? 2002 was a good year, or maybe just go with 2000. That year was a hoot. Sheesh.

#39 Shane Davis
July/15/2009
@ 11:25 am

“By the way, Shane, in your screed where you refer to President Obama as a â??totalitarian dictatorâ?, comparing him with the likes of Hitler and Mussolini, and believing that the federal government is taking individual rights away, so we need to fight for them, are you advocating an overthrow of the federal government and/or the assassination of the president you believe is a monstrous dictator?”

I did answer, Wiley. I said I can’t read the future and tell you exactly how bad he is going to be but that I believe it is going to BAD. We’re only 6 months in an he is the biggest disaster we ever elected.

I also said ‘No’ I don’t believe the solution is to put a few rounds up his snot locker. This still isn’t a 3rd world banana republic, even if ‘The Sacred O’ is running it that way.

Again, I said if things do get as bad as they can under this neanderthal thug one solution for those of us who still want to be free would be to seceed. That was the solution I offered.

My answers NEVER included opening up his brain cavity with a bullet – I don’t condone that and would NEVER want that to occur.

The WOSRT thing in this nation that could happen (next to this Indonesian Al Capone being in the White House)is to have him martyred and cannonized as a saint by getting his worthless @$$ capped.

That would make that disgusting idiot an eternal hero to the parasitic welfare class and the professional racists of the country.

No thanks. Let him stay until he hangs himself and goes down as the guy who relieved Jimmy Carter from the post of ‘Worst Leader in American History.’

#40 Wiley Miller
July/15/2009
@ 12:29 pm

That’s not the question I was talking about, Shane. I’ll copy and paste it for you again:

Your last post begs a couple of questions, Shane.

First, since you consider Obama to be â??the worst president in 150 yearsâ? after just 6 months in office, what could he do now and for the rest of his term to turn your opinion around that would make him the best president in 150 years and get your vote for a second term?

Second, since most true Texans donâ??t like the governor, and Iâ??m assuming here that most Texans consider themselves to be â??true Texansâ?, like you, then how the heck did he get elected?

#41 Steve Skelton
July/15/2009
@ 12:43 pm

Shane you need to look for your marbles. You’ve apparently lost them. Check under the bed, I think they rolled that way.

#42 Mike Lester
July/15/2009
@ 1:17 pm

Steve, school yard personal attacks? “Lost marbles”? Really? Are wedgies against free speech next? I thought we discussed thru hopefully clever banter professional opinions on issues cartoonists face. Shane, while long winded and uncomfortably descriptive at times has an opinion and now, according to you…cooties.

#43 Steve Skelton
July/15/2009
@ 1:31 pm

Well lessee, Mike….Shane compares Obama to Hitler and Mussolini and I say he has lost his marbles and now I am school yard child. Okay, Mike. I get it.

#44 Wiley Miller
July/15/2009
@ 1:32 pm

Opinions are like nostrils. Everyone has at least two of them, and they’re not very pretty to look at up close.

I agree with Mr. Lester. While I understand Steve was making a joke, it still amounted to a personal attack. It’s best if one disagrees with another’s opinion, that they simply refute it based on facts about the issue itself rather than trying to demonize the messenger.

Now, back to answering the question I posed earlier…

#45 Steve Skelton
July/15/2009
@ 1:39 pm

sorry. I will refrain from responding to ranting political posts on a professional cartooning forum from now on.

#46 Mike Lester
July/15/2009
@ 1:54 pm

Sorry. One of these things does not belong and it’s you as a victim. Either you’re playing possum re: Shane’s free speech or you just refuse to share. Either one get’s you in time out and one frowny face.

Wiley, you’re not going to get an answer. The worst thing about Texas is Texans. I ought to know, I got kin there.

#47 Mike Grosvenor
July/15/2009
@ 1:58 pm

please note that the president was wearing a ginormous kevlar vest under that white sox jacket, something for which he probably failed to compensate in his one attempt to throw the ball.

#48 Tom Wood
July/15/2009
@ 2:41 pm

“The worst thing about Texas is Texans.”

Now I’m totally offended, since I live in Austin, which is nominally a part of Texas. You’ve now made a personal attack on an entire state. An entire ‘people’ even! Auuughh!!!!

It’s no use Alan, this board is self-offending.

#49 Mike Lester
July/15/2009
@ 3:03 pm

AAAARRRRGGGHHH!!!! Outsmarted myself. Apologies.

#50 Lucas Turnbloom
July/15/2009
@ 5:46 pm

Speak for yourself, Wiley. My nostrils are beautiful.

#51 Shane Davis
July/15/2009
@ 5:52 pm

@ Wiley,
First, since you consider Obama to be â??the worst president in 150 yearsâ? after just 6 months in office, what could he do now and for the rest of his term to turn your opinion around that would make him the best president in 150 years and get your vote for a second term?”

He would have to abandon his entire world view, being that America is an unjust, racist nation founded unlawfully by the use of Western European Judeo-Christian facists and built through the exploitation of minorities. Being that BHO is a drooling disciple of Saul Alinsky I don’t think he’s going to do that anytime soon.

“Second, since most true Texans donâ??t like the governor, and Iâ??m assuming here that most Texans consider themselves to be â??true Texansâ?, like you, then how the heck did he get elected?”

We got Bush-wacked. Bush was elected Gov. in 1994 over a then very unpopular Ann Richards. This was the famous ‘Contract With America’ election that swept the GOP into control of the House, Senate and most Governorships. We believed Bush when he said he was a conservative – that was a mistake. Anyway, a host of his lackeys got elected with him, Perry getting the nod for Lt. Gov. When Bush moved to the White House, Perry was elevated by default. Wasn’t elected in 2000, he was promoted.

Then in 2002 the only guy the Dems could muster against him was old sorry Tony Sanchez who was rumored to be in money laundering schemes with the Mexican drug trade. Hard to win in Texas with that knock. So Perry won by default again.

And in 2006 he was contested by an even sorrier set of characters that was almost as silly as the 2003 California gubernatorial election. Perry ran against Kinky Freidman (Indep.), Carol Strayhorn (Indep.) and a Mr. Rogers look and sound alike name Chris Bell. All were jokes, so Perry won again.

As I said, the Bushes were the worst thing to ever happen to the GOP. Their brand of spineless, midle of the road religious socialism has corrupted the party into a sad wannabe impersonation of the Democrat Party. That’s how we ended up with the disaster of John McCain as our party’s nominee last year.

It takes awhile to purge a party of the strong effects of certain elements. I know Democrats who still to this day say it was Clinton and his crew that took that party down itno the ‘win at all costs even if it destroys people and wrecks the nation’ mentality.

Thankfully, Perry is probably going to resign after 2010 in an effort to go to the US Senate, where as we know you don’t have to have one single solitary damned qualification to serve, outside of having gobs of money. Idiotic, ideological, self-infatuated, elitist turds are preferred, it seems.

Perry is the last remnants of the Bush Effect in Texas. We are hopeful that once gone, we can return to business as usual and get things done again. The only reason he has lasted this long is because Southern governors have very limited power (post Civil War effect) and a conservative House & Senate have remained very business and family friendly. Perry had just enough brains (or intelligent advisors) to go along.

OK, OK! No more ‘Canterbury Tales’ lenght posts after this.

I try to post more Claude Van Damme monosyllabic responses.

#52 John Lotshaw
July/15/2009
@ 6:14 pm

And what this has to do with cartooning is… ?

At least no one mentioned webcomics. Oops. Drat!

#53 Wiley Miller
July/15/2009
@ 6:51 pm

@Shane…
“He would have to abandon his entire world view, being that America is an unjust, racist nation founded unlawfully by the use of Western European Judeo-Christian facists and built through the exploitation of minorities.”

That’s pretty vague considering your long posts of opposition, particularly on economics, which seemed to be the brunt of your vitriol. What exactly could he do on this most pressing problem facing the country that would please you?

#54 Shane Davis
July/15/2009
@ 7:02 pm

Steve – my marbles are hidden as I understand they will soon have to be serial numbered and registered with Obama’s Marble Czar. Sorry, can’t let you see ’em.

Mike – Thanks, but I’ll meet Steve at the flag pole at recess if he insists on fighting. I’ll meet you at the flag pole after the bell rings for what you said about Texans.

Wiley – My nostrils are far better groomed & maintained than my opinions. And my opinions don’t whistle when I sleep.
I think.

Tom – Since you live in Austin too, have you ever tried running over a bicyclist? It’s cheaper than therapy and actually relieves more stress than ranting on forums. But forgive Mike. Georgians know nothing about good BBQ so you can’t blame their hostility.

Lucas – Nothing. Absolutely nothing. But I think this thread started with how screwed up L.A. is. See!! Everything screwy starts with California!!

Alan – I owe you probably about $13.50 for bandwidth. Take a check?

#55 Shane Davis
July/15/2009
@ 7:16 pm

Wiley,
My rant was aimed at the evisceration of the Constitution and our subsequent loss of freedom & servitude to a bloated federal tyranny.

Economically, all I can say is ‘FREE MARKET! FREE MARKET! FREE MARKET! FREE MARKET!” Smart creative folks in the country like yourself are the engine of our economy and they keep it motoring NOT D.C.

The govt. cannot create wealth, guarantee equality of outcome or make life risk free or fair. It can only control and regulate and print more worthless money ultimately wrecking our economy, NOT saving it.

SO! What (economically) would Obama have to do to get me to vote for him? He’d have to abandon his socialist re-engineering of our country and embrace free market economics and let people succeed or fail on their own without a huge nanny state safety net that we and our kids and their kids are all going to pay out the nostrils for over the next 200 years. Is that clear enough?

Now, everyone (myself included) are probably at the end of hearing anymore about BHO from me. (I can hear the “&%^#*#$ RIGHT!” eruptions through my monitor).

So if it isn’t clear by now, all I can do is send you a Rush Limbaugh t-shirt.

What’s your size?

#56 Shane Davis
July/15/2009
@ 7:21 pm

OOPS! In post #54 my comments to Lucas were meant for John.
Sorry Lucas.

But hey, I’d love to see your nostrils someday.

#57 Dave Stephens
July/15/2009
@ 8:12 pm

As long as the banks aren’t part of the Free Free Free Market economy – they took a small bite of freedom and vomited more money down the drain than you can shake a “mad in China” stick at…

#58 Shane Davis
July/15/2009
@ 8:52 pm

I really wanted to tease you about “mad in China” sounding like a personal letter to Dear Abby, but after all the typos I generate, well I type like Bush spoke.

And the banks only did what the govt. let them to do when they changed the rules in the mid 1990’s. Thank you Chris Dodd and Barney Frank – may you and your buddies at AIG, Lehman Bros, Fanny May and Freddy Mac all smoke a bratwurst on the hot side of the river Styx for that.

#59 Jason Barry
July/15/2009
@ 9:44 pm

Mr Miller, the United Socialistic States of Amerika is here and with puppets like you, we can all march off to re-education camps to be taught the arrogance of liberalism by you. After all, you’re an expert on both liberalism and arrogance.

#60 Wiley Miller
July/16/2009
@ 6:31 am

“SO! What (economically) would Obama have to do to get me to vote for him? Heâ??d have to abandon his socialist re-engineering of our country and embrace free market economics and let people succeed or fail on their own without a huge nanny state safety net that we and our kids and their kids are all going to pay out the nostrils for over the next 200 years. Is that clear enough?”

Actually, no, that’s not very clear. It’s rather general and filled with vague buzz words. I’d really like to know what specifically you think he should do.

#61 Terry LaBan
July/16/2009
@ 8:04 am

The problem with people like Shane is that they really don’t have a clue about how democracy works. Obama made very clear what his agenda was and a sizable majority of the American people elected him to implement that agenda. If Americans end up with more “socialism”, it’s because they want it. And they want it for the very good reason that a modern nation that’s as complex as the United States can’t function without a great deal of government involvement in the lives of it’s people. That’s not new–it’s been true since the ink was barely dry on the Constitution.
The inevitable result of unregulated economies like the one Shane idealizes are totalitarian states ruled by wealthy oligarchies–it’s these, not welfare states, that are meant by the term “banana republics”. Or, if you’d really prefer no government at all, take a look at Somalia or Afghanistan. Meanwhile, countries with governments far more intrusive than ours will ever be are kicking our economic behinds.
I doubt any of that matters to Shane, who distorts fact and history to such an extent that they’re almost unrecognizable(Florida’s an example of one of the states that are doing well in the current economy?!) Personally,in the extremely unlikely event that Texas actually does secede, I’ll say good riddance.

#62 Mike Lester
July/16/2009
@ 8:21 am

The problem w/ people like (your name here) is they have no clue how to engage in a respectful, courteous yet clever debate.
And last time I checked, 56% is not a “sizable majority” and America is a republic not a democracy. Look it up.

-another problem w/ Texas: they think beef is BBQ. (PORK IS BBQ!!!)

#63 Mike Lester
July/16/2009
@ 8:23 am

In fairness, the Texas state flag is iconic and second only to South Carolina’s palmetto and crescent.

#64 Terry LaBan
July/16/2009
@ 9:15 am

56%, while not a landslide, is a clear and convincing majority. And while America is indeed a republic, we choose those who represent us in the government through democratic elections. Any more respectful, courteous, yet clever rebuttals, sir?

#65 Steve Skelton
July/16/2009
@ 9:50 am

I find it funny that someone can post incendiary political comments in a ranting fashion on this board and when someone responds to it they they are called disrespectful and uncourteous. You can’t throw a bomb into a crowded room and expect daisies to come from it.

#66 Wiley Miller
July/16/2009
@ 10:02 am

Here’s an idea… maybe we could talk about stuff that actually relates to topic or cartooning in general. Or is that more “liberal arrogance”?

#67 Jeff Mahon
July/16/2009
@ 10:20 am

@Terry,

Our Constitution is a document on SEVERE limitations to government power. The founders, when “inking” the Constitution knew that a Federal Government was a necessary evil, so they tempered that power by restricting it.

For instance, LEGALLY, the FedGov CANNOT do anything not written in Article 1, Section 8. But unfortunately the Constitution has lost it’s power of Law and has been downgraded to just a historical piece of paper.

A government, like a society cannot function properly without a set of laws to protect it from itself. It will self destruct and that is precisely what we are doing.

Because our Fedgov does not follow the law, it has become an out of control beast, preying on its people, which is the very reason we have become so “complex”. When chaos flourishes, so does complexity.

I am not picking sides on this debate, but I think Shane has more of handle on how our Republic works than you think.

I feel the present administration is simply the endcap to nearly a 100 years (starting with Wilson and his shadow president E.M. House) of destruction of the great American Republic.

#68 Lucas Turnbloom
July/16/2009
@ 10:22 am

It really stinks what’s happening to Rick and Creators.

#69 Wiley Miller
July/16/2009
@ 10:44 am

Ok, back to the issue regarding Creators…

Here’s the part that really stuck out to me and nearly caused my brain to explode:

“Their official position is that the city is not bound by past rulings…”

What?! The city isn’t bound by past rulings? Then what’s the point of having rulings? It’s like when a new administration comes into office. That doesn’t mean all previous treaties with other nations are null and void.

Seems to me that this would be pretty much of a slam-dunk in court, but the point is, they shouldn’t need to go to court in the first place, because the issue had already been settled!

Regardless of the outcome, I think Creators should move the Hell out of Los Angeles, and probably California.

#70 Tom Wood
July/16/2009
@ 10:49 am

Oh gawd, don’t even get me started on east coast BBQ. Vinegar?! Are you insane?! Sugar-based BBQ sauce is what civilized people consume! Ask Jay Leno, he has Iron Works BBQ flown in.

Mmmmmm…Iron Works BBQ…

#71 Jeff Mahon
July/16/2009
@ 11:12 am

Mr. Miller,

Los Angeles is a gleeming example of what happens when local, state and federal government stop abiding by the law.

“Do as we say, not as we do” mentality is of course very dangerous and oppressive.

Their arrogance in this matter should be a wake up call to all of us across the country and I hope Mr. Newcombe strikes a victorious blow.

I understand most businesses such as syndicates have financial contingencies in place for such legal fights, but it still makes me wonder how it will affect the pocketbooks the the artist Creators represents to go through such a battle.

#72 Alan Gardner
July/16/2009
@ 11:20 am

As I think about the Creator v L.A. city story, I remind myself that:

1) we only have an OP-ED piece written by the Creators side of the debate. What the WSJ printed is opinion and was not vetted for facts or an attempt made to get the opposing viewpoint.

2). The original case was settled in 1994 and the city wants back taxes going to 2004. Let’s see. 2004 minus 1994 is 10 and 10 is a nice round number. Makes me wonder if L.A. changed it’s tax laws in 2004 (legitimizing the argument for back taxes to that date) or perhaps there might have been some clause in the original ruling that specified a time-out period.

The end result is we have a HUGE missing piece of the puzzle – the original court ruling and the city’s point of view.

How we got to BBQ sauce and constitutional law says a WHOLE lot more about us – and by us, I mean you :) – than the facts of this case.

Carry on (or perhaps best if you don’t.)

Alan

#73 Wiley Miller
July/16/2009
@ 11:38 am

“The end result is we have a HUGE missing piece of the puzzle – the original court ruling and the cityâ??s point of view.”

Yeah, meant to mention that, as what we have is just from Rick’s assessment of the city’s position. It should be taken at face value, which is exactly what the courts are for.

But I still say he should move the syndicate somewhere else. Who needs the hassle?

And the best BBQ I’ve ever had (and I’ve had it in all parts of the country) is at a restaurant called The County Line, which is located high up in the hills outside of Albuquerque, NM. If you ever find yourself in that part of the country, do yourself a favor and go there… unless you’re a vegan. They’re only open for dinner and always packed.

#74 Alan Gardner
July/16/2009
@ 11:45 am

Since we’re on a BBQ kick, the best sauce I ever had was from a start up catering company here in Utah. I was able to take some home after the gig and not having any more meat, I wandered the kitchen looking for ANYTHING to dip into it.

Now I’m hungry for BBQ meats.

#75 Jeff Mahon
July/16/2009
@ 12:17 pm

The easiest thing to do for Creators is to set up a Nevada State Corporation and open a small satellite office there for show. They wouldn’t have to move the entire operation.

#76 Brian Powers
July/16/2009
@ 12:18 pm

I’m partial to Bar-B-Cuties.

#77 Jeff Mahon
July/16/2009
@ 12:18 pm

Best ribs on the planet is Azeka Ribs on Maui.

How I miss those ribs….

#78 Terry LaBan
July/16/2009
@ 12:25 pm

“Because our Fedgov does not follow the law, it has become an out of control beast, preying on its people, which is the very reason we have become so â??complexâ?. When chaos flourishes, so does complexity.”

Sorry, Jeff, but that’s ridiculous. We’re a complex society because it’s the 21st century, not the 18th. Despite what whack-job libertarian fundamentalists claim, the Constitution wasn’t written so that we WOULDN’T have a government. And the government we’ve developed over the last 200+ years, however flawed it is, has been essential in the development of this country into the most powerful and prosperous on earth.
By the way, Creators is in the position it is because the voters of California have eviscerated their state’s ability to function. forcing local entities to resort to extreme measures to raise revenue. I think everyone should move out of California. And eat nothing but barbecue.

#79 Shane Davis
July/16/2009
@ 12:26 pm

Wiley- Ok, how about cut capital gains down to 1982 levels, restore pre-Clinton era banking laws, eliminate double & triple taxation on the self employed and small business (the back bone of the economy), institute a 12% flat tax on individuals and 15% on corporations, eliminate the near 40% inherentance tax, make an opt-out provision to social security, cap welfare entitlements to 24 months total life time – just a few off the top of my head.

#80 Shane Davis
July/16/2009
@ 12:43 pm

Tom, you nailed it on the Iron Works. They brought some to us during Session this Spring and we almost had a gunfight over sharing it! Great stuff! Wiley- just to show we can agree, you’re about the County Line. They are the same folks who run 2 locations here in Austin, and they’re pretty dang good as well.

#81 Daryl Cagle
July/16/2009
@ 12:44 pm

Los Angeles is unusual in that it charges a business tax on the gross receipts of a business â?? like a sales tax on gross receipts that is not passed on to the customer. This is unlike an income tax that is applied only to profits. The city business tax is a huge burden to businesses that have low profit margins, or which lose money. The taxes act like business fertilizer for the cities that surround Los Angeles â?? thatâ??s why the entertainment industry is in places like Burbank, Culver City and Universal City.

The problem with Creators is that it is the only syndicate in Los Angeles. The city charges different tax rates to different kinds of businesses, charging wholesalers a lower rate than â??occupations and professionsâ? because people will drive to Glendale or Beverly Hills to shop, but will probably go to the barber who is nearby. There are 52 different classifications.

The problem for Creators isnâ??t that there has been a change in the law; it is that the business classifications were never written to apply to this unique business. Rick argues that Creators is a wholesaler, because all of the content is resold by other publications â?? but Creators sells no tangible property and collects no sales tax. The City argues that Creators is to be treated like a barber â?? whatever classification is chosen is an arbitrary decision to apply a category that doesnâ??t describe Creators, which is unique on the tax rolls.

As I understand it, it was a city ruling, not a court ruling, that reassigned the Wholesale classification that Creators originally chose for itself, and the city reserves the right to change its mind. The issue isnâ??t so much that the Los Angeles shouldnâ??t be allowed to change itâ??s mind regarding past decisions – it is that a taxpayer shouldnâ??t be penalized for following the past decisions of the city and a businessman should be able to know what the taxes and regulations are that apply to his business, to be able to make basic decisions, like where to locate the business.

The gross receipts tax burden is huge, Rick is probably facing huge penalties, and the profit margins of a syndicate are slim (as I well know). Rick should join the parade of businesses that have already moved out of Los Angeles.

#82 Jeff Mahon
July/16/2009
@ 12:54 pm

Well Terry, if you think the U.S is properous, you need to check your facts.

We’ve been muddled in debt since 1913.

If operating on 100% credit is prosperity, then I am have doing things wrong for most of my life.

#83 Jeff Mahon
July/16/2009
@ 12:55 pm

Thanks Mr. Cagle for the extra info. Adds another dimension to the argument.

#84 Wiley Miller
July/16/2009
@ 1:09 pm

@Shane-
See? Now that’s a valid, substantive opinion that rational people can debate in a rational manner. When you go into the hyperbole of Hitler and Mussolini comparisons, it only serves to take away anything serious you have to say.

And I’m envious that you have two places there run by the people who own The County Line. Also, Austin is a great town. Really enjoyed it when we had our AAEC convention there several years ago.

#85 Shane Davis
July/16/2009
@ 1:35 pm

“Obama made very clear what his agenda was and a sizable majority of the American people elected him to implement that agenda. If Americans end up with more â??socialismâ?, itâ??s because they want it. And they want it for the very good reason that a modern nation thatâ??s as complex as the United States canâ??t function without a great deal of government involvement in the lives of its people. Thatâ??s not newâ??itâ??s been true since the ink was barely dry on the Constitution.”

Terry, manâ?¦.first off, I’m not a whack job anything because I opposed Obama – so did nearly 48% of the rest of America.

Second, I have never seen any poll that indicates Americans have now or ever wanted ‘more’ government involvement in their lives, much less ‘socialism.’ Obama won because people were scared over the economy and their choice was either a slick talking, suave BHO or the reptilian-looking McCain who appeared ready to lick his eyeball at any moment during the debates. They did NOT elect ‘socialism’ because if they did, Osamaâ??s approval ratings wouldn’t have dropped almost 10 points in the last 3 weeks as the details of his government health care take over comes to the fore front of the news.

Third, if people truly wanted more government then why in 1996 did the liberal Democrat Clinton famously proclaim in a radio address that “The era of big government is over”? – because it was an election year and even he knew you don’t get a majority of votes screaming for bigger and more intrusive government. Obama never claimed “I’ll give you more government regulation in your lives” – he said “Hope change hope change hope change” and left the details out for the most part.
If people last November knew the details of his health care & cap and trade plans, heâ??d probably lose 3 to 4 million votes and several House & Senate seats. The 2010 off year election will be proof of this.

And lastly, to claim that a deeply involved government has always been an accepted part of our lives…man, you need to re-read the Federalist Papers. The founding fathers were terrified of a powerful central government – they had just fought a brutal war to over throw one! They had Constitutional Convention fights over how to keep the fed as small as possible and only just powerful enough to still operate.

It was the Civil War the ripped the 10th Amendment apart and began the notion that the federal government had superiority over the states. NO FOUNDING FATHER would have EVER agreed with the ridiculous notion that a deeply involved federal government was an accepted condition upon the signing of the Constitution.

And finally, quite truthfully, I had no idea California had decent BBQ. I figured it was all sushi, rice-a-roni and chocolate chipotle artichokes.

Go figure.

#86 Shane Davis
July/16/2009
@ 1:39 pm

@ Wiley,
Man, if you ever come back to Austin let me know. I will personally take you out to the County Line on Lake Travis and treat you to the “All you Can Stand” plate.

Comes with sausage, chicken, peppered turkey breast, ham, extamoist brisket, beef ribs, pork ribs (see Mr. Lester, we’re civilized!), potato salad, cole slaw, beans and Blue Bell ice cream.

Anyone who read through ALL of my posts deserves it. :)

#87 Shane Davis
July/16/2009
@ 1:43 pm

BTW, in that post Terry I did not intentionally call Obama Osama – I think my browser’s spell checker changed it – I meant to click ignore because it doesn’t recognize ‘Obama’ but it does ‘Osama’ and I accidentally clicked change, not ignore.

No hyperbole or smart @$$ remark intended there.

#88 Mike Lester
July/16/2009
@ 2:47 pm

In defense of vinegar based North Carolina eastern seaboard pulled pork, let me simply say that is an acquired taste and one I did not grow up eating. In GA. we burn ketchup based concoctions on the hides of our barnyard pets. But once I had the clean pungent pepper flaked primitive unadorned taste of NC BBQ I was hooked. Another thing: we don’t buy our BBQ as much as other regions. We make it in our backyards and drink for 4 hours.

#89 Terry LaBan
July/16/2009
@ 3:13 pm

reShane “We have a totalitarian dictator that is intentionally sinking our economy and shredding our Constitution in order to â??reinventâ?? America. Is that serious enough for you?”

I don’t know if that statement makes you a whack-job, but it at least means you’re prone to hyperbole and don’t know much about history.
The fact is, Obama was very clear about his agenda. Throughout his campaign, he talked about massive government spending to stimulate the economy, a government plan for health care and everything else people like you are complaining about, and he did it over and over and over. People voted for him because they wanted those things and because they’d become convinced, in the face of overwhelming evidence, that the version of free market economics they’d been sold since 1980 didn’t work. The fact that his numbers have dropped now that he’s actually trying to implement his reforms just means that, as usual, fantasy gets less attractive when it turns real.
It’s true that the Founding Fathers distrusted government, but they also knew that the weak central government the country had had under the Articles of Confederation had been a disaster. In any case, even a cursory examination of American history shows that the government has been involved in the lives of the citizenry since Day One, everything from clearing Texas of the Comanches to helping WW2 vets buy homes. That’s precisely because it responds to the will of the people and the people (excepting, of course, the Comanches)wanted those things. The US as Libertarian Disneyland has never existed, except in the minds of guys in beards and camouflage who live with their gun collections in trailers on the edge of town. As for the Civil War, I think it’s probably time to get over that and move on.
I didn’t mean to imply that I knew anything about Californian barbeque. Or any barbeque, except my own.
If Jeff Mahon doesn’t think the US is a prosperous country, maybe he should travel a little. Believe me, you could do worse.
God, this thing is worse than Facebook!

#90 Alan Gardner
July/16/2009
@ 3:17 pm

God, this thing is worse than Facebook!

Then don’t keep fanning the flames.

This thread (and many others that we’ve had) continually reminded of this excellent XKCD cartoon by Randall Munroe

Someone is wrong on the internet!

#91 Jesse Cline
July/16/2009
@ 3:23 pm

LOL Alan

btw, when does the XKCD book come out?

and vinegar BBQ is delicious

#92 Wiley Miller
July/16/2009
@ 3:23 pm

“Comes with sausage, chicken, peppered turkey breast, ham, extamoist brisket, beef ribs, pork ribs (see Mr. Lester, weâ??re civilized!), potato salad, cole slaw, beans and Blue Bell ice cream.”

Stop! You’re killing me, Shane!!!

Talking about barbecue, and opining on which region has the best, is far more fun and informative than politics.

#93 Wiley Miller
July/16/2009
@ 3:28 pm

“Another thing: we donâ??t buy our BBQ as much as other regions. We make it in our backyards and drink for 4 hours.”

I question the accuracy of that statement, Mr. Lester.
Would you seriously have us believe that the drinking doesn’t commence until AFTER the barbecue is made?!

#94 Shane Davis
July/16/2009
@ 4:27 pm

Terry,
This argument reminds me of the police officer being grilled on the stand for shooting a perpetrator coming out of a bank while robbing it.

When asked why he did it, the officer stated “I approached the area in question having been alerted to the possiblity of a felonious assault and robbery in progress. After ensuring no innocent civilians were in jeopardy of crossfire, I safely unholstered my service weapon and scanned the area upon approach of the buiding. It was then I observed an adult male in a ski mask holding an obviously deadly hand gun and waving it in an aggressive, assaultive manner.
I celarly identified myself as a police officer and requested the individual lay down his weapon and comply with my instructions.
The subject did not comply and I, according to law and the policy of my department, was then force to use deadly force by firing my service weapon at said subject, in order to preserve the safety of myself and the public at large.”

When questioned by the Distric Attorney on the shooting, a witness that was standing nearby had a slightly different take on the event.

DA: “Sir, can you relate the events of the shooting, EXACTLY as you observed them, please?”

Witness: “Well, Mr. DA, I don’t rightly remember exactly what happened..”

DA: “You mean you can’t remember how the event happened?”

Witness:”No sir, I remember. I just cain’t remember if it was
“FREEZE MOTHERFU##ER!!” *BLAM!!*,
or if it was
*BLAM!!*, “FREEZE MOTHERFU##ER!!”

I think I tend to be the FREEZE-MF-BLAM type, I think you might be more the other way. No matter.

I think we’ll have to agree to disagree that we see the deal going down in just completely different ways.

Mike,
That South Carolina flag looks like it was designed by a Persian vizier. Was it sew by Scheherazade?

#95 John Lotshaw
July/16/2009
@ 5:16 pm

What’s important is rub and smoke. If they’re right, you don’t need need no stinkin’ sauce….

#96 Tom Wood
July/16/2009
@ 5:56 pm

God, this thing is worse than Facebook!

Then donâ??t keep fanning the flames.

We didn’t start the flame war…

http://www.collegehumor.com/video:1907543

#97 Henry Clausner
July/19/2009
@ 7:51 pm

OMG!…can we get 100 comments on this one people?…

#98 Shane Davis
July/19/2009
@ 8:31 pm

Only if another fight starts.
Here, I’ll do it.

“Whatâ??s important is rub and smoke. If theyâ??re right, you donâ??t need need no stinkinâ?? sauceâ?¦.”

@John,
RUB AND SMOKE!? RUB AND SMOKE!?

$^%&# YOUR RUB AND $&^#%$ YOUR SMOKE!!

IT’S ALL ABOUT THE BROWN SUGAR, MOLASSES AND HICKORY, YOU NERD!!

Forgive me, John.
Just tryng to please Henry.

#99 John Lotshaw
July/20/2009
@ 1:52 am

Hey… I wanted to get a fight started on here about something other than politics and/or webcomics… :P

#100 Mike Peterson
July/20/2009
@ 3:41 am

Webribs are just as good as the ones you get at the barbecue joint and they’re FREE!

#101 Jason Nocera
July/20/2009
@ 6:34 am

I give away my Webribs for free but then charge people for my hand wipes with my logo on it.

#102 Kelly McNutt
July/20/2009
@ 6:46 am

I’ve never been overly fond of ribs… (gasp)

#103 Wiley Miller
July/20/2009
@ 6:52 am

Web-brisket… slow cooked for 18 hours over a hickory pit… you can virtually smell the aroma, making you drool all over your keyboard… mmmmmmmmmmmm…. free web-brisket…..

#104 Henry Clausner
July/20/2009
@ 9:26 am

Thats funny…I luv it in here! ewww rub and smoke, sounds like a dirty movie!

Sorry, the comment form is closed at this time.