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Black Leaders Demanding Ed Gamble Be Fired (UPDATED)

Local black leaders in Jacksonville Florida area are demanding an apology, the firing of Florida Times-Union’s editorial cartoonist Ed Gamble and the inclusion of an African-American on the paper’s editorial board over one of Ed’s editorial cartoons that depicted a gunman wearing a “Don’t Snitch” t-shirt calling two little children a “good little ho!” See cartoon.

From an article by Times-Union Reader Advocate, Wayne Ezell:

The cartoon came after police assertions that a “Don’t snitch” culture has impeded efforts to solve crimes in Jacksonville. A CBS 60 Minutes segment last Sunday focused on the growing problem, especially in inner-city neighborhoods, and how some rap artists have encouraged it.

“The object of the cartoon was to comment on the rise of a no-snitching culture, something that is widely in the news today,” Clark said.

“Cartoons, by their nature, take broad strokes that can be interpreted differently,” he said. “There was certainly no intent to offend the many law-abiding Jacksonville citizens.”

Editorial page Mike Clark has stated that, “Using the word ‘ho’ was bad judgment, and I regret that I did not edit it out.” Ed maintains that, “I was making a point that rappers are demeaning to women.”

UPDATE: Al Sharpton has issued a response to the cartoon. While being “appalled” at the cartoon, he’s using the cartoon as “further proof that the hip hop community and those who market them must be held accountable for the destruction they are causing in the Black community.”

Community Comments

#1 Neal Obermeyer
August/22/2007
@ 7:54 am

I’m normally a big ol’ bleeding heart, but I think the cartoonist has clearly characterized the shooter as a bad person, and bad people say bad things. End of story.

I sure hope he doesn’t lose his job over this. I think this is a good cartoon.

#2 Mike
August/22/2007
@ 8:06 am

I really feel it’s a sad state of affairs when a person is losing their job over a word as simple as ‘ho. I would think that women (in general) would be up in arms over this more than the black community. The word in question is a slur against women, not a race in general.

Are we standing on that sharp of a social knife edge that something this stupid can cause such turmoil?

There are bigger injustices in the world that are going unnoticed and ignored to focus our energies on something as dumb as this.

#3 Charlos
August/22/2007
@ 8:30 am

This is a touchy subject to me. On the one hand, as an African-Americant, I feel that there needs to be some kind of racial sensitivity training for cartoonists who take a stab at inner city culture without truly understanding the little nuances of it. However, as a cartoonist, I am not in favor of straight-up censorship. I think a different approach to would have been better suited.
I’ve read Mr. Branch’s work over the years and find that he is quite talened and poignant. I think that he truly missed the mark here, though. By the way, not all of hip hop is about stitching and misogyny (see Common).

#4 Clay Jones
August/22/2007
@ 10:29 am

Charlos,
you need cartoonist sensitivity training because they hate it when you confuse them for another cartoonist.

#5 Rich
August/22/2007
@ 10:50 am

Who would have guess that “ho” would be a politically charged word? ;0 (Duh, Imus, hello) Perhaps if the cartoonist had used “Yo” but then he may have offended Randy Jackson or the Tommy Smothers!

Stupid that it’s even an issue, but equally stupid to use it after the Imus flap.

#6 Charlos
August/22/2007
@ 11:19 am

Wait, is this the same Clay Jones of my own syndicate slinging mud? Not cool, man.

#7 Barlogea
August/22/2007
@ 11:44 am

Local black leaders in Jacksonville Florida area are demanding an apology? How about an apology from the black people to the entire human race for that crap that is rap and hip-hop “music”?
This political corectedness has gone way too far.
If Ed Gamble loses his job over this,than I don’t know what kind of screwed-up society we are heading to. After two centuries of being oppressed, now it’s their turn to be the oppressors, or what? What’s next, the Black Nazi Party? The Black Klan?

#8 Rick Stromoski
August/22/2007
@ 12:03 pm

â?¥How about an apology from the black people to the entire human race for that crap that is rap and hip-hop â??musicâ??

As soon as the white community apologizes for Celine Dion, Pat Boone and Charlie Daniels.

#9 Dawn Douglass
August/22/2007
@ 12:09 pm

I think this speaks to the problem of editorial cartoonists being an employee. Can’t say this, because it will offend our advertisers. Can’t say that, because it will offend political hounds.

How can you be free to speak your mind through your pen when the subjects of that pen have the power to cut off your livelihood?

Ever read the books that collect the increasingly thick stacks of editorial cartoons that are being killed and never make it to newspapers and magazines?

#10 Mike
August/22/2007
@ 12:10 pm

Don’t forget about Michael Bolton.

#11 Dave M.
August/22/2007
@ 12:55 pm

What about his editor? Shouldn’t lose his job too if Gamble is fired? After all, he’s the one decided to run the cartoon. I’d think that makes him more culpable than the cartoonist.

#12 Rich
August/22/2007
@ 1:07 pm

And Tiny Tim.

#13 Stacy Curtis
August/22/2007
@ 1:48 pm

Ed Gamble drew it, but it was his editor who published it.
The editor is the person who allowed it to be seen by the readers of the newspaper, not Ed.

No one can deny the language in the cartoon isn’t used by some
African-Americans. Is it offensive? Yes. But I think Ed was using it in the context of his cartoon.

Be offended at the folks whose vocabulary contains this garbage.

#14 Charlos
August/22/2007
@ 1:50 pm

Well said, Stacy.

#15 Dean Turnbloom
August/22/2007
@ 2:56 pm

This is really ridiculous. I read the story yesterday and emailed Ed my support. I think the actions of the NAACP with regard to this cartoon flap are just as outrageous as their inaction against all those rappers and gangstas that Ed is lampooning. If the Florida Times-Union caves on this, they don’t deserve anyone’s respect. The real racists are those that promote gangsta rap and all for which it stands.

#16 Tony Murphy
August/22/2007
@ 4:10 pm

I’m a white cartoonist, and the cartoon seems outrageously offensive to me.

In one of these posts, someone asked whether we are standing on “that sharp of a social knife edge.”

Well…Florida is the “boot camp” state, where a black teenager was suffocated to death in one of these camps — and the official coroner said he died from sickle cell anemia. That was before the video surfaced. It’s where African American voters were excluded from voting on a massive scale in 2000.

I’m not picking on Florida. I live in New York, where racism is rampant: think Sean Bell or Abner Louima. Outside of NY, think Katrina. I mean, is there any social edge sharper than racism?

Are we to seriously accept some of the notions offered in this thread that the real problem here is a)rap music b)”political correctness” or c)freedom of speech? The NAACP? Are you serious?

#17 Dave Stephens
August/22/2007
@ 5:26 pm

Rap music is VASTLY populated by 100% offensive language. Not all rap. Maybe not even most rap. Doesn’t matter. Offensive language is a STANDARD. The word “HO” comes up a lot. Blacks use it. Whites use it. Hispanics use it. And when it is used, judgement follows. Rarely is it kind.

Don’t like this judgement? Change your language.

Clearly, the judgement in this cartoon is that folks who use this language are WRONG WRONG WRONG.

I use my judgement. Calling folks names like “ho” – that would be wrong. I don’t care if they are black, white, purple or green.

#18 Cory Thomas
August/22/2007
@ 5:48 pm

I can appreciate the intent of the cartoon’s message. I’m sure the artist’s heart was somewhere close to the right place. But the cartoon itself is an awkwardly presented piece that displays a mostly superficial understanding of the culture it’s trying to depict. I don’t find it offensive so much as just… off.

#19 MJ
August/22/2007
@ 9:47 pm

It is a good cartoon. Right on Ed. As for the music references. That “R” word is not music. Just cannot bear to use that word in any sentence that contains the word music.

#20 Dawn Douglass
August/22/2007
@ 11:49 pm

So that’s two people who have said this cartoon is “off,” that it “missed the mark” and doesn’t depict “the nuances” of inner city life.

So explain to us exactly where it goes wrong, please. I’d honestly like to know.

#21 Neal Obermeyer
August/23/2007
@ 7:37 am

I don’t think anyone’s doing the cartoonist any good by saying “Good cartoon…Rap isn’t music.”

It just makes it look like you appreciate the cartoon because you want to take a cheap shot at rap rather than supporting the point it’s trying to make (which is much bigger).

#22 Dean Turnbloom
August/23/2007
@ 7:46 am

The advocates of offensive rap lyrics try to pass off patently misogynist messages as nuance, yet they become offended when someone points out how ludicrous the situation has become.

People should really look at the cartoon before crying “racist” and try to understand the message. I think the cartoon is a condemnation of that portion of the rap music culture that uses the word “Ho” in a misogynist connotation and the conglomerates that make money by promoting it. It also depicts t-shirts that say “Don’t snitch”, which is in response, I believe to a news story about such t-shirts becoming popular, and the same mentality that is enforced by the gangsta “community” in the inner city.

It’s time for people to get beyond trying to “shoot the messenger” and start confronting the real problems of society – the stark loss of morality and personal responsibility.

I applaud Ed Gamble for having the courage to point out an obvious incongruity in society!

#23 Charlos
August/23/2007
@ 8:41 am

Its easy for somebody to sit back in their suburban home, watch the evening news depicted inner-city crimes and say ‘there they go again.’ I grew up in the inner-city and believe me not all of us are like the characters portrayed in this cartoon. The message is a bit hurtful to people who are trying to get rid of negative messages involving the inner-city.
No, I don’t advocate some of the negative and ridiculous messages sent by some “hard-core” rappers, but this particular cartoon speaks an entire community, not just the rappers. I think the best result of all of this would be for some kind of a meeting between African-American leaders in Jacksonville and the Times-Union editorial board, including the cartoonist. Nobody should get fired over this, but clearly some sort of dialog should begin.

#24 Neal Obermeyer
August/23/2007
@ 9:03 am

Yeah, come on people, quit just generalizing about black people. It only shows your ignorance.

Besides, you’re all just probably racists who’ve never left the suburbs anyway.

#25 steve s
August/23/2007
@ 9:36 am

This is just nuts. It is an EDITORIAL cartoon. It is generating the response that an EDITORIAL cartoon is supposed to. It is the reason why EDITORIAL cartoons developed in the first place. There is very little that shoud be sacred in an EDITORIAL cartoon. Go read Garfield if you can’t handle it.

#26 Rich
August/23/2007
@ 1:05 pm

Well said Steve. Charlos, good luck reversing the inner city image. When Bill Cosby said a few choice words to get the community to wake up and smell the coffee they jumped all over him. I believe many good folks such as yourself want things to change and the stereotypes don’t help, however, you have several willing to cash in on them (from within the community and outside of it) via “c”rap music ,etc. The bad apples continue to ruin it for the rest. When black-on-black crime is at an all time low and family values are the norm for the inner city … then I think the stereotypes will fade. Just my 2¢ from my comfortable pew in suburbia – tell me where I’m wrong.

#27 Mike Witmer
August/23/2007
@ 2:27 pm

“Its easy for somebody to sit back in their suburban home, watch the evening news depicted inner-city crimes and say â??there they go again.”

Charlos,
How is it wrong for something like this context but okay for saaaay ‘the boondocks’ to poke fun at white people on a regular basis. That’s just a small example. I”m not saying that either is right. I’m just saying we all need to have a sense of humor SPECIALLY when reading comic strips. We all need to learn to laugh once in a while. There’s a difference between hate and good-humored jabs and that’s the whole point.

When people get this fired up over a single word that wasn’t even meant as a racial slur, it says something about the environment we’re living in. Obviously there are still a lot of raw feelings out there and still a lot of folks with chips on their shoulders.

#28 Gabe Clogston
August/23/2007
@ 2:47 pm

“I grew up in the inner-city and believe me not all of us are like the characters portrayed in this cartoon.”

But you can’t pretend that this culture doesn’t exist, and that it isn’t being pushed further by the negative role model which rap music has provided. Nobody has said that everyone in the inner-city lives this life, nobody is pretending that all african american live this life, the comic is aimed at one aspect of inner city culture. I think it is very well done, and obviously effective… if it was not we would not be having thise conversation right now.

#29 Pat
August/23/2007
@ 2:59 pm

This comic clearly says what people have been tap-dancing around for years: The hip-hop culture is oppressive and its causing kids to build socially irresponsible values into their lives. Rap culture is about as necessary as throwing lawn darts at diabetic little old ladies, and just about as socially redeeming. It “uplifts” black people into criminal and destructive lifestyles that are harmful to other people.

The fact that people are up in arms about this just points out how bad the situation is. It needs to be shoved into people’s faces, like this cartoonist has done. He should be getting accolades, not condemnation.

#30 MJ
August/23/2007
@ 3:38 pm

O.K. fine Neal. Ed Gamble is a great cartoonist consistently funny, with artwork to match. This is the job of an editorial cartoonist to state his/her view of the happenings in the surrounding environments where everyone goes about their daily lives. In the cartooning world there should be no censorship, as long as the said cartoon is within reason. There are some lines you just shouldn’t cross. So I stand by my first statement with the following amend to it. It is a GREAT cartoon. Right on Ed. You may now resume listening to whatever music you listen to. Just use your headphones so we don’t have to listen to it.

#31 Robert
August/23/2007
@ 6:05 pm

If blacks don’t want to be stereotyped as dumb then half of them should not be dropping out of high school. If they don’t want to be stereotyped as violent then they should not commit violent acts at ten times the rate of the rest of the population.
If anybody deserves an apology here it is white America for having to endure this perennial crime spree that IS the black community. The NAACP should not be going after a cartoonist that makes fun of this ignorant black urban culture they should be going after the black artists that promote this no snitchin lunacy. It is sad to think that a significant portion of the black community would freely choose to let criminals run free by not helping the police. If they truly want to live in a lawless society then let them have it – in segregation.

#32 Angela
August/23/2007
@ 8:22 pm

Dawn said “So thatâ??s two people who have said this cartoon is â??off,â? that it â??missed the markâ? and doesnâ??t depict â??the nuancesâ? of inner city life. So explain to us exactly where it goes wrong, please. Iâ??d honestly like to know.”

This cartoon is “off” because in the black community NEVER would even the toughest, most hardcore thug refer to two very young black children (these looked about ages 4 and 7 years old) as a “Ho.” NEVER! EVER!

Actually, such a blatantly sexual connotation toward a very young black child could get one thug in big trouble with the bigger, badder, thugs in the neighborhood.

And, it’s even more offensive to me that a white male would attmept to do it as a joke. You do NOT call black babies “Hoes.” Whether rapper, gangster or white male cartoonist.

You don’t think there would be an outcry in the white community if some characrter in Doonesbury or an editorial cartoonist called a little, white 4 year old girl a “Ho” for a laugh. Wake up people!!

#33 Neal Obermeyer
August/23/2007
@ 8:25 pm

So Angela, are you suggesting that all white villains are depicted as being polite and respectful, with never a negative word said toward anyone?

#34 Eric Burke
August/23/2007
@ 8:43 pm

About 15 miles from me is Dorchester, MA, where the crime rate in the predominantly black section of the city climbs higher every year, the police there routinely run into the “no snitching” attitude from the residents…who then complain about no police help.It’s been a continuing story for years.

It’s a shame that this “no snitching” mentality exists. Is it out of fear of repurcussion from the criminals, or some twisted sense of community pride?

It’s also unfortunate that the brand of hip hop/rap that promotes the “thug life” is the most popular genre of music these days. And we have white, suburban wannabe’s to thank for it! Let’s not place all the blame on the black community for that brand of music. Supply and demand dictates the market…and peeps taste in music seems to suck pretty bad these days.

It’s too bad, too. There’s alot of good, positive hip hop out there. It’s just that it doesn’t sell in today’s marketplace.

I thought the comic was spot on…except the “rap your life away” billboard. The comic shone the spotlight on an aspect that these communities should be ashamed of, and an aspect that they should be looking to change, not fire a cartoonist over!

Ed Gamble didn’t create the “no snitching” mentallity, he’s just satirizing it…

#35 Angela
August/23/2007
@ 8:48 pm

I’m sorry about all of the typos in my post. I actually DO know how to spell. I’m just so angry I couldn’t see straight. I have two young African-American daughters and it is making me SICK to have to keep explaining to them why everyone keeps calling them “Hoes!” I can possibly understand why a stupid, young, uneducated, wannabe-thug, black male teen with raging hormones, trying to sell rap records or be a comedian, and give himself street cred, might use the word “Ho.” I don’t condone it, but I understand it.

But, for the life of me, I can’t understand why
mainstream media and educated WHITE MALES are trying to get away with using the word. Especially when these VERRY same men would NEVER EVER refer to their OWN daughters as a “HO” be she a college student, a highschooler or a 5 year old. But, they seem to have NO PROBLEM using this word in reference to a black female college student or a black 5 year old. And, then the white males get offended if you don’t laugh.

DAWN can you explain THIS peculiar behavior in the white community to ME?!

#36 Angela
August/23/2007
@ 9:15 pm

Neal said, “So Angela, are you suggesting that all white villains are depicted as being polite and respectful, with never a negative word said toward anyone?”

We are NOT talking about villians. We are talking about the white males who like to call black female college students and black babies HOES. And, then get totally pissed off if you don’t laugh at it and call it free speech.

Neal, find me ONE, just ONE, instance of a white male public figure calling a little, white 7 year old girl a HO! In the general news media, the internet or in a cartoon of any kind.

You WILL NOT find it because the white community would NEVER EVER tolerate this type of behavior. Not only would the offender get FIRED, but the little girl’s father AND the Klan would probably be looking for him.

#37 Angela
August/23/2007
@ 9:24 pm

Robert, your comments are so TOTALLY ASININE and RACIST, I won’t even bother to address them.

#38 Cory Thomas
August/23/2007
@ 9:27 pm

“If blacks donâ??t want to be stereotyped as dumb then half of them should not be dropping out of high school. If they donâ??t want to be stereotyped as violent then they should not commit violent acts at ten times the rate of the rest of the population.
If anybody deserves an apology here it is white America for having to endure this perennial crime spree that IS the black community.”

Jeepers.

#39 Angela
August/23/2007
@ 9:44 pm

Corey said, “If anybody deserves an apology here it is white America for having to endure this perennial crime spree that IS the black community.â?

Corey, I suppose the evil white folks should have thought of THAT before they captured us like animals and brought us to the U.S. in the bottom of boats as slaves, trying to make a quick buck.

And, don’t tell me to go back to Africa unless you pack up and go back to where ever the hell (as in country) your family came from. The Native Americans are the only people REALLY from here.

#40 Garey Mckee
August/23/2007
@ 9:44 pm

As I stated in another response thread on here, I deal with this sort of thing all the time with my own strip. Writing about police work, you can’t help but not address the issue of race and racial tension. And there have been times where my work has been called “border line racist.” But in the end, I’m just holding up the mirror. People read into it what they will based on their own backgrounds and experiences.

#41 tom
August/23/2007
@ 9:51 pm

That wasn’t Corey that said that, Angela. He was quoting Robert. Corey’s African American.

And Robert, all I can say is, wow. If your goal was to shock us, well…you did.

#42 Angela
August/23/2007
@ 9:59 pm

Thanks Tom.

Ooops! Sorry about that Corey :-(.

#43 Angela
August/23/2007
@ 10:15 pm

Garey said, “But in the end, Iâ??m just holding up the mirror. People read into it what they will based on their own backgrounds and experiences.”

Okay. Well have you ever held up the mirror and referred to your OWN 4 and 7 year old daughters as HOES! I think NOT. And, you would NEVER do this regardless of what was in the mirror.

So, why do it to MY 4 and 7 year old daughters! And, why do you think you should be able to get away with it without me telling you I don’t like it and that I find if offensive.

Me thinks, your little mirror has a double standard.

#44 Rich
August/23/2007
@ 10:33 pm

Angela, please calm yourself, I’m worried about your blood pressure here! You said that no one would ever call young black girls hos, then explained that you have two young black girls and have to explain to them why everyone is calling them hos. I’m confused. I think I’m sympathetic to your cause, but your logic is really hard to follow through all of the emotionalism.

I think whites look very stupid when they try to talk/act inner city black (I never understood the popularity of emenem (sp) for example), yet you seem more upset with whites using the term when it seem to be used heavily in the black community in a similar way. So I think I’m still missing your main point.

Using hos in a cartoon after the Imus flap it darn near retarded, but I still have little problem with this particular cartoon. In the communities I have lived and worked, I have seen very little racism … perhaps suburbia has embraced the ideals that we are shooting for in society. I see folks from all ethnic groups pretty much having equal pay, equal opportunities, good jobs, good family life, etc. … yet the counter-culture and some civil rights leaders seem to want to live in the racial tensions of the 60s all over again. Why doesn’t the inner city strive to improve their condition? Cosby nearly got his rear-end chewed off by civil rights leaders when he basically said for black community (or the pop culture and inner city aspects of it) to clean up their act.

Oddly Al Sharpton (per the update to article above) is appalled by the cartoon yet seems to agree with the point it’s making. I expected the former, but not the latter. Regardless, it really makes no sense to me to be both appalled by it and agree with it. Either the cartoonist makes a point he agrees with or he doesn’t … not sure how it can be both.

#45 Angela
August/23/2007
@ 11:38 pm

Rich, if you had to deal with this crap in the media on a regular basis like I do, you would be upset too. As a matter of fact, alot of people on this list appear to be UPSET that black people are upset with the cartoonist. Go figure.

I don’t listen to rap music and neither do my daughters, so I don’t hear black males using this word. But, young black teens (as well as young white teens) often do and say stupid things, so you have to consider the source. Again, I don’t condone it, but I understand it. Absolutely no one should be saying these types of things!

However, I DON’T understand why mature, educated, white males, like Imus and this editorial cartoonist enjoy throwing around these terms like “wanna-be thug teenage homeboys” or something. I have had to explain these two incidents to my daughters because they are all over the mainstream media, newspapers and television. And, white children talk about them at their school. My daughters ask me why do those men on TV keep calling young black college women and little girls HOES! Are they really hoes mommy? What am I supposed to tell them? Some white guy must have held up his mirror today.

To call a very young female child of any race a HO is dispicable and has very sick sexual connotations. Especially the very young ages of the children depicted in the comic strip in question. The authorities would check into the background of men who said these types of things in online chatrooms because it smacks of a closet pedofile.

Sorry, but a white male calling a 7 year old black child a prostitute HO to make a social statment is just NOT funny or witty to me. And, most of you tolerate it and defend it in the name of free speech ONLY because the victims are black females.

So, has anyone found a cartoon where little white 7 year old girls are being called a ho and nobody got in trouble for it. Maybe I should put up some money on this.

#46 Angela
August/24/2007
@ 12:30 am

“I have two young African-American daughters and it is making me SICK to have to keep explaining to them why everyone keeps calling them â??Hoes!â?

I did not mean this literally. No one has called my daaughters this name to their faces. However, my daughters are very aware of the two recent incidents with Imus and this cartoonist as it was in the media. They both feel it’s an attack and racial smear against them, as do I.

#47 Angela
August/24/2007
@ 12:30 am

“I have two young African-American daughters and it is making me SICK to have to keep explaining to them why everyone keeps calling them â??Hoes!â?

I did not mean this literally. No one has called my daughters this name to their faces. However, my daughters are very aware of the two recent incidents with Imus and this cartoonist as it was in the media. They both feel it’s an attack and racial smear against them as black females, as do I.

#48 Dave
August/24/2007
@ 12:33 am

Keep your money – NONE of us are defending the cartoon ONLY because the “victims” are black females.

A victim mentality is YOUR problem. Especially if you see this cartoon as attacking young black females.

It’s not. It IS attacking the common LANGUAGE of many inner city folks. These same folks, of every color, are calling EVERY little girl, teenager, woman, the same WRONG name.

It’s a problem.

#49 Rich
August/24/2007
@ 12:44 am

Okay, I think I understand now! Thanks for sticking with me until I got it. I definitely agree with you! Calling innocent children bad names is not good, even if just a portrayal in a cartoon. I think Imus and Gamble had different intentions though … Imus is/was a shock-jock and I think he finally got bit for over-the-top crass humor (if you can call it that). (What his intentions were I have no idea … I never even heard of him until the big flap.) Gamble I think was trying to play on the bad stereotypes of bad guys trying to make a point that this was bad (the language, the hip-hop culture, and no snitching, etc.) and that this is all wrong. A call for enough-is-enough already, kind of thing.

I can see if you have to explain this to your kids, just how tough that would be and how angry that would make you. Especially when it comes up repeatedly. I actually think Gamble is on you side in a way, but should not have used ho (it wasn’t even central to the cartoon). Now I can see why Sharpton could be appalled and agree with the message all at the same time.

I hope you can see that mainstream culture really doesn’t know what to do in reaction to this kind of thing. They get upset that the inner city doesn’t seem to help itself, nor help police when they try to help, and then their own kids think it’s cool to emulate it and so on. The solution is naively simple (love one another), but the implementation is very difficult (you start). How to get there from here.

Anyway, thanks for the clarification!

#50 Angela
August/24/2007
@ 12:52 am

Dave you said, “A victim mentality is YOUR problem. Especially if you see this cartoon as attacking young black females.”

You’re right. The problem is just my “victim mentality.” Imus, a WHITE man, addressed BLACK women as “nappy headed HOES.” And, now this cartoonist, another WHITE man, just addressed two little BLACK girls as “good little HOES” in his cartoon.

I think I should use my money for counselling because due to my “victim mentality” I totally IMAGINED that these two white men said these things. Thanks for pointing this out to me, Dave.

#51 Rich
August/24/2007
@ 1:11 am

Angela, I see your point and pet peeve with this. No one should be calling innocent children hos. You start to lose me again if you start obsessing over the fact that it’s white guys in two instances doing it … you had me at no one should do it! Anyway, thanks for the dialog! I learned a lot. Have a good evening!

#52 Angela
August/24/2007
@ 1:20 am

Rich said, “Okay, I think I understand now! Thanks for sticking with me until I got it. I definitely agree with you! Calling innocent children bad names is not good, even if just a portrayal in a cartoon.”

Rich, thanks for actually listening to me. Maybe all of my ranting here was not in vain, if even just one person now understands the “other” point of view on this issue. :-)!

#53 Rich
August/24/2007
@ 1:30 am

You sound like a great mom! I can’t imagine dealing with these issues with your kids on a daily basis. It’s hard enough with just the regular set of parental issues to deal with, let alone these kinds of things. Anyway, thank you – I can be a little more sensitive to this issue now.

#54 Garey Mckee
August/24/2007
@ 1:52 am

I think the uproar about the use of the word ho is distracting from the original point of the cartoon. That is trying to foster awareness of the stop snitchin’ mentality that is protecting the criminals in these neighborhoods. Let me educate you.

You have no idea how difficult it is trying to break down a wall of silence that originally defines cold-blooded slaughter in these cities and neighborhoods seemingly under siege. We have to really work hard to identify and locate witnesses to find these killers. Then we are required to summon up the best of our interview skills to draw out a reluctant witnesses. Even close friends and family members of those involved in a violent crime or murder have to be coaxed into providing information. Some never help at all.

We are dealing with a lost generation that was brought into this world by one that was ill-prepared to raise them. â??Babies having babiesâ?? is the popular phrase used to identify them.

Statistics show that here in Philadelphia fifty percent of murder victims are black males between 15-29 years of age. Similar numbers hold true for those who killed them. This represents a significant increase over the last 20 years. Those numbers span and help define two generations.

It is the parents of this lost generation that are fostering the â??stop snitchinâ?? mentality. An incredible number of murder investigations are stymied because parents tell their children not to tell the police what they know. Youâ??d be amazed at the number of parents who physically remove their kids from conversations with detectives. Is it any wonder then that the level of violence continues to rise among that population?

This is the situation this cartoon is trying to bring to light. And I have tried to bring it into the awareness of the civilian reader in my cartoons as well. God help us all if we fail yet another generation.

#55 Rich
August/24/2007
@ 1:59 am

Garey, agreed, this is a very difficult issue and you hit the key point of the cartoon. The ho business is a distraction, but I do see where it should have been left out entirely to make the main point more prominent. The problem you describe has to be very frustrating to deal with, yet so critical to get under control.

#56 Rick Stromoski
August/24/2007
@ 5:14 am

>>>The Native Americans are the only people REALLY from here.

Actually, Native American ‘s ancestors walked here from Mongolia over the Bering/Aleutian land bridge. … but genetic coding has established that unltimately, we all came from Africa. So brothers and sisters, can’t we all just get along?

#57 Robert
August/24/2007
@ 6:38 am

I just think it is high time the black community be held accountable for its criminal behavior. When will it ever stop? Everywhere there is a high density black population whites have to fear for their lives and avoid these areas like the plague. Is this fair to have these black danger zones in virtually every urban area across the country? What would the NAACP be saying if whites victimized blacks at the same rate that blacks victimized whites? Blacks are an estimated 39 times more likely to commit violent crime against a white person than vice versa, and 136 times more likely to commit robbery but us white people are not supposed to be biased towards blacks? Why not? Then what would justify bias if not criminal behavior? All the while the blacks just continue to play their endless blame game. First they blame the guns as if all the indiscriminate predatory gun use by blacks is actually caused by the guns themselves (why don’t whites shoot each other at the black rate? They have the same access to just as many guns.) Then, if it is not the guns, they blame the police for not stopping the violence. This is really getting pathetic and it is time that the liberal media stop whitewashing the black crime spree that has been going on in every urban area in this country now for decades. This cartoon is totally justified.

#58 Robert
August/24/2007
@ 7:00 am

posted by Angela – “I suppose the evil white folks should have thought of THAT before they captured us like animals and brought us to the U.S. in the bottom of boats as slaves, trying to make a quick buck.”

The Romans enslaved Europeans for 500 years. Why aren’t whites as pathological as blacks then? This is just more typical black denial and blame game. You ignore that blacks were capturing and selling blacks to whites in Africa. You ignore that the black crime rate is even worse in Africa and that Africa is where slavery to this day can be found. You ignore that free black countries like Haiti, free and black for 200 years have the same high black crime rate.
I think blacks like you Angela simply resent whites because we are the only ones that create societies that everyone else wants to live in. Nowhere on earth do blacks enjoy the same standard of living as they do when living among a white majority and that is why all the blacks who don’t like whites still remain living among them.

#59 Dawn Douglass
August/24/2007
@ 7:03 am

Okay, Angela, black men would never call young black girls hoes. I appreciate that and I understand why you are offended by it. But please tell me at what age does it becomes okay for black males to brand a black female a ho?

I don’t like the word, but getting so irate when two white males use the term while at the same time declaring it’s understandable when black males use it makes no sense at all to me.

At some point the black community needs to take responsibility for their own behavior and not be so shocked and offended when one of their own highly popular words is picked up by the larger society.

Your girls will be infinitely more affected by how their own community treats them and thinks of them than by what a couple of middle-aged white men have said.

To say “it is making me SICK to have to keep explaining to them why everyone keeps calling them ‘Hoes!'” is misdirected outrage, IMO. Two white guys is not “everyone.” Take a look around and see who is actually degrading your girls and will relegate them to pieces of meat within a few short years.

Here are some points from a study that came out in June:

“The proportion of adults who first had sex before age 15 was highest for non-Hispanic blacks (28 percent) compared to 14 percent for both Mexican-Americans and non-Hispanic whites.”

“Black men and women were more likely to report having 15 or more partners in a lifetime (46 percent and 13 percent, respectively) than other racial or ethnic groups.”

Add the fact that black men seldom marry the black women they impregnate (black illegitimacy rate is over 70% now) and it seems to me that what two middle-aged white men say isn’t your girl’s real problem.

Pointing out facts isn’t being racist, it’s the job of editorial cartoons. How can things be improved if nobody is allowed to talk about problems because bringing up real issues is considered racism?

I do think it was silly to distract the real message of this cartoon by using the loaded word “HO.” It clouds the issue that “Don’t Snitch” allows people to literally get away with murder.

Angela, I’m glad you’re passionate about the problem of the word “Ho.” Perhaps you should rethink your tolerance for it’s use when spoken by blacks. Isn’t to demand less of blacks than you expect from whites racist? To me, it’s like saying that blacks can’t help themselves but whites can and should rise above such things.

#60 Mike
August/24/2007
@ 7:19 am

Okay, this thing needs to end. I’m amazed that in 2007 there are people out there who aren’t sensivite enough (or mature enough) to understand that a portion of the American (Jacksonville specifically) was upset by this cartoon.
I have worked for a newspaper for over 12 years and the general rule is that if there is an outcry of any kind like this the newspaper HAS to respond. Period. I’ve heard some messed up, blatantly racist views here, but that doesn’t get around the point that some kind of action from the Times-Union must happen.
Years ago Kirk Walters of the (Toledo) Blade drew a cartoon that was considered racist by the black community there. He almost lost his job. Fortunately the paper and the community had the good sense to have a meeting and hatch things up.
Whether intended or not, You can’t just publish (draw, write, photo) something in a major metropolitan newspaper that offends even a portion of a population. Circulation is at stake here (i.e, money). C’mon, be intellegent, people. And, please, enough with the personal and/or racist attacks.

#61 Angela
August/24/2007
@ 9:23 am

Dawn, I know the black race has problems. I am not denying that. Personally, I’m married, an attorney and my husband is a doctor. But, we both came from very humble beginnings.

If snitching is a problem then discuss snitching. I have no problem with that. How does calling 5 and a 7 year old little black girls hoes shed light on the snitching problem? It doesn’t. It just sheds light on the “white educated males in the media’s recent nasty habit of calling black females hoes” problem. Now, I and my daughters personally have to contend with BOTH young black males AND old, educated white males doing it. Dealing with it from just one demographic was horrible enough.

The cartoonist completely missed the boat here because the black thug in his cartoon would NEVER utter those words at the risk of getting beat-up by the other thugs on the block. That would be like someone making a tasteless, cruel Holocaust joke to bring attention to the AISS crisis. Yes, AIDS is a bad situation, but there are correct and incorrect ways to bring attention to it. No one would EVER refer to little white girl in this manner due to the public outcry. The editor would have probably FIRED the cartoonist for even SUBMITTING a joke like that for publication if he had portrayed two little white girls being called hoes.

That being said, educated white males in the main stream referring to young black woman and children as hoes should NOT be one of the black race’s problems. Just like white men referring to young white woman and children as hoes should NOT be one of the white race’s problems. And, strangely it is not.

You are being TOTALLY naive if you expect a 19 year old drop-out wanna-be rapper (black or white) to behave like a middle-aged professional man (black or white). I doubt if Imus smokes joints behind the local highschool and has sex with his girlfriend in the back seat of his car like one of these teen boys would. I don’t see why it is difficult to understand why I or the rest of society would expect a mature educated adult (of any race) to behave like, well, a mature educated adult.

You asked me when it is okay for any male to refer to any woman has a ho. I say never. But, I think the police authorities probably have their own standards in place and can answer this question for you. If you are daring enough to find out, that is.

I suggest you go to an AOL chat room (raise the stakes and go to a chatroom for kids) and brag about the 5 and 7 year old black hoes that you saw standing around in the ‘hood. Worse yet, joke about the 4 and 6 year old white hoes you saw in McDonald’s at lunch today. Not only will you probably get a negative reponse from irrate people (of ALL races) in a normal chat room, but the authorities will probably open a file listing you as a suspicious/potential child predator if you say such hideous things around children.

So what would be learned from this little experiment? That both black people and the federal authorities get a little pissed off (or at least uncomfortable) when people refer to innocent little 5 and 7 year old girls in an unacceptable sexual context like, hoes. Even IF you’re trying to make a funny or a point about snitching in the black community.

I find it difficult to beleive that alot of you educated people here can’t comprehend this.

#62 Angela
August/24/2007
@ 9:31 am

Again, I’m sorry about all of the typos. But, I’m trying to type quickly and I’m an attorney not a secretary ;-). Next time I’ll use spellcheck and cut and paste my response.

#63 Dawn Douglass
August/24/2007
@ 9:54 am

“The editor would have probably FIRED the cartoonist for even SUBMITTING a joke like that for publication if he had portrayed two little white girls being called hoes.” No, that’s not true, but it’s unlikely that the editor would have allowed it to run.

As others have said here, the editor should have caught this. The cartoonist shouldn’t have used the word Ho. He should apologize for that mistake, but I don’t think he should be fired for not knowing what you said yourself are nuances within the black culture. It’s easy to think that every female in the inner-city is called a Ho, because that’s what we see in movies, hear in the music, from standup comics, and so on.

Ho has taken on a meaning larger than “whore” just like the F-word no longer just means intercourse. I’m sure it wasn’t the cartoonist’s intention to imply that those little girls were whores, but he was just looking for a Hip Hop word for females. Again, he should apologize for that mistake, but I don’t think his head should be served up to publicity hounds.

#64 DT
August/24/2007
@ 10:13 am

Angela,

I understand your frustration, I really do. I do, however, think your anger is a bit misguided.

First instance: You complain about white males referring to young black girls as “Ho”. That is misleading and I think you know it. Ed Gamble’s cartoon was satirizing the fact that the “hip-hop” culture as presented by the rap community is degrading to women by the use of the term “Ho”. You are correct, you don’t find white men referring to white women/girls as “Hoes”, primarily because that is not a term normally used by educated white males (or educated black males for that matter). You might have a point if Mr Gamble showed either an affluent white male or an affluent black male referring to a black girl as “Ho”, but that’s not what we have in this cartoon. Ed Gamble wasn’t condoning the use of the term, he was condemning it. The major difference is that some of the black community will only condemn the use of some words when they are used by whites – regardless of the context.

Second instance: You can “understand” the use of the word “Ho” by “young black teen(s)” who are trying to sell records or be comedians, but not white cartoonists. This seems odd in that the black teens selling records are the ones condoning the language when the white cartoonist, in this case at least, is the one condemning it.

Third instance: You said the evil white men should have thought about “THAT” before they “captured us like animals” and brought you to America as slaves. History lesson. Black Africans were bought from other black Africans by the white slave traders and brought to America. There was evil on both sides.

It appears you are more angered by folks like Imus, which is entirely justified as Imus is a tired old fool who allowed his suppressed bigotry to leak out on the air, but are trying to equate Ed Gamble’s cartoon with Imus’ blunder. That’s just wrong-headed, and it just may be that you have a bit of bigotry against whites that is preventing you from seeing the difference.

You appear to be a very intelligent woman who is doing her best to educate her daughters. I applaud your efforts and wish you well. I hope you teach them the difference between satire and bigotry.

#65 Angela
August/24/2007
@ 11:10 am

Dawn said “But I donâ??t think he should be fired for not knowing what you said yourself are nuances within the black culture. Itâ??s easy to think that every female in the inner-city is called a Ho, because thatâ??s what we see in movies, hear in the music, from standup comics, and so on.”

First of all, I (nor you) have EVER seen a black rapper or comedian refer to a very young girl (below age 12) as a ho. I know of no culture or society where blatantly sexual references to very young girls is acceptable behavior. And, in most cultures it is illegal and/or at least attracts the attention of legal authorities.

I never said there was some “nuance” or subtle, secret rule in the black community that the cartoonist innocently and unknowingly violated. I think either you or maybe someeone else used the word “nuance.”

In the black community, just like in the white commuunity, it’s frikkin’ COMMON SENSE and a VERY BIG “NO NO” at the risk of getting TARRED AND FEATHERED by other males in the community who don’t take kindly to blatantly nasty sexual references to/about very, very young girls. So, I think “nuance” is the wrong word here.

I’m sure the cartoonist thought this through very carefully and figured he’d take his lumps. Then he went into “homeboy” mode and got carried away. But, as the old saying goes, “If you play with fire, you might get burnt.” Like Imus, he chose to make a very controversial statement and now he has to face the wrath of the black community. Just like he would have had to face the wrath of the white community had those two little girls in the cartoon been white.

If they accept his apology, fine. If they don’t, fine.

#66 Rick Stromoski
August/24/2007
@ 11:10 am

Posters such as” Robert” are very open about voicing their unlettered racist sputum when shrouded in anonymity. They neither identify themselves nor leave a link to their email to be responded to. I wonder if he and others like him would be so bold if in order to post, (like pretty much every other cartoonists bulletin board worth it’s salt) that you would have to be identified by your proper name or a link to your email so you can be properly shunned. Of course, that would mean that people would be hesitant to voice what they truly feel about an issue or to trash other cartoonists work for fear of being called on it. But isn’t that the point? To spare the rest of us having to be subjected to the rantings of racist cowards what could be compared to an acrid fart in a crowded elevator? With the prior knowledge that everyone would know who “dealt it” maybe it will force the potential flatulent to just hold it.

#67 Rich
August/24/2007
@ 11:16 am

Wow, this discussion takes some interesting turns!

Mike, editorial cartoonist offend a large group of their readers every day (usually conservatives);). That’s what they do. A town meeting every time there’s a flap about an editorial cartoon is seems overboard. Do you mean when the groups that are offended and make enough noise, then the paper should respond? If so, I suppose that makes sense. In this case, I’m for an apology from the editor and cartoonist over an unintended slam on young girls … and use the attention this is getting to address the main issue, which is the no snitching mentality. It can be a win-win. The cartoonist/paper can turn the negative into a positive (making their point and satisfying the offended folks) if the paper and he handle it right.

#68 Rich
August/24/2007
@ 11:21 am

Rick, you generally seem to be quick with the personal attacks. If you disagree with the guy’s points, why don’t you address his arguments?

#69 Robert
August/24/2007
@ 11:26 am

To Rick Stromoski – a racist is generally considered a person who promotes untruths about race. You can not call a person a racist if what they say is in fact true so unless you can show where I was in error, your name calling is unfounded and without merit. Mere facts can not be considered racist. It is not racist to say that blacks murder at about 8 times the rate of whites. This FACT can be found on both the Department of Justice and FBI websites.

#70 Angela
August/24/2007
@ 11:36 am

DT said “Black Africans were bought from other black Africans by the white slave traders and brought to America. There was evil on both sides.”

DT, I think you “hit the nail on the head here.” White males have a really bad habit of justifying their wrong/immoral behavior because “blacks or _____________ (fill in the blank with any other ethnicity) did it to themselves first.” This cartoonist is guilty of this same warped thinking.

Just like slavery was wrong for Africans, it’s ALSO wrong for whites. Just like using the word hoe it wrong for black men, it’s ALSO wrong for white men. Because some black men make misogynist statments about black women doesn’t mean that white men now get a FREE PASS to it also without criticism.

As I said before, now I have this headache from two different deomographics: young, stupid black men and old, stupid white men. Just because white men say they are merely imitating black men does NOT make it acceptable or lessen the harmful effects.

#71 Robert
August/24/2007
@ 11:42 am

Just another word for Rick Stromoski – Your desire to halt any and all conversation about race by trying to stigmatize people you disagree with is truly pathetic. You are not going to “shun” people away from speaking the truth just because it shatters your egalitarian myth. Your name calling makes for a very poor argument. It is obvious to me why you do this – because you have no intelligent argument to provide in the first place.

#72 Robert
August/24/2007
@ 11:52 am

posted by Angela – DT said â??Black Africans were bought from other black Africans by the white slave traders and brought to America. There was evil on both sides.â?

DT, I think you â??hit the nail on the head here.â? White males have a really bad habit of justifying their wrong/immoral behavior because â??blacks or _____________ (fill in the blank with any other ethnicity) did it to themselves first.â?

The difference Angela is that it was you who used this “legacy of slavery” nonsense as some sort of excuse to explain poor black behavior. you wrote – “I suppose the evil white folks should have thought of THAT before they captured us like animals and brought us to the U.S. in the bottom of boats as slaves, trying to make a quick buck.”

What happened generations ago has nothing to do with the current levels of black male violence. Look at the collective trauma that the Jews and Japanese went through in WWII. Why aren’t they more violent then?

#73 Charlos
August/24/2007
@ 12:06 pm

To Alan Garnder:

Hey, man, this message board has taken a turn to the worse. Any way to filter out the racist remarks and personal attacks?

#74 Angela
August/24/2007
@ 12:12 pm

Actually Robert, that comment I made was my feeble attempt at being sarcastic. I was trying to make a funny about white people getting more than they bargained for by bringing us here. Black people have problems, but I don’t really believe that we’re the undoing of the nation.

But hey, don’t you have maybe a Klan meeting or something that you have to go attend.

#75 Alan Gardner
August/24/2007
@ 12:21 pm

At this point, I think we need a cooling off period. I’m closing down this thread for the weekend.

UPDATE: One final thought as I re-read some of these posts. I apologize to anyone who came here for an intellectual discussion Ed Gamble’s cartoon and had to wade through an emotionally charged and at times racist comments. It is clear that America still working through issues of race. When the posts were coming through, I was scanning them for swear words (one of my no-nos), but not necessarily content. On topics of such weight, I will try to monitor the discussions more closely. Again, my apologies to anyone who has been offended. I would also add that opinions posted by visitors to this site are theirs alone and by not censoring their opinions one should not infer that I share those views.

Have a good weekend.

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